X-Message-Number: 11556 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: To M Perry (criteria for awareness) and J Grigg (suicide and cryonics) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:21:21 +1000 (EST) Hi everyone! Several issues: For Mike Perry, I would say that a great deal depends on the "other criteria" you propose to use. I am not doubting the possibility of a creature made of "nonbiological" materials (though the division between biological and nonbiological is going to get less and less clear). The point about current methods most relevant to this issue is not that they work with biological brains, but that they allow us, more and more, to tell what someone is thinking and feeling. If we have means to do the same for a "nonbiological" creature then we are in exactly the same position with respect to it. We are not black boxes; if presented with a black box, the answer to this question will remain very unclear. Without your criteria I can hardly discuss whether or not I think they would be sufficient to decide that this "nonbiological" creature is or isn't aware. I do think, however, that the mere ability to answer verbal questions just is not a sufficient criterion (unless, as I've said, it is accompanied by a proof that the set of statements and symbols involved can have only one interpretation --- which I think unlikely). This hypothetical creature will have to not only converse with us, but actually do things in the world and tell us about them during or afterwards. We expect that of a human being and should expect it of an aware creature. And part of this activity in the world would involve doing things which we request of it (simple things would be sufficient), and an ability to request us to do things too. It would also have the ability to explain to us what it was doing, and understand our explanations of what we were doing too. Enough such actions and the case for awareness becomes much stronger. (And for those who've read about robots manipulating an artificial world, sorry, but that is just not enough --- such worlds fall orders of magnitude short of the complexity of reality). Ideally we'd like means to look into the mind of this creature in the same way as MRI scans can look into our brains. But if we lack such means, an extensive series of tests (or experiences) of the kind I've listed would make a pretty good case. Not theoretically unbreakable, but pretty good. And to John Grigg: Suicide without risking autopsy is very difficult in any advanced country. If the country is underdeveloped and ruled by a dictator, as many still are, then suicide without autopsy would be easy, but cryonic suspension becomes very difficult indeed. Best and long long life to all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=11556