X-Message-Number: 12893 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:54:49 -0500 From: david pizer <> Subject: Re: Robert Ettinger's comments Robert Ettinger raises some interesting points. Here is my response. Dave Pizer --------------- >Message #12884 >From: >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:13:45 EST >Subject: "Cryonics-supportive community" > >To Dave & Trudy Pizer, and anyone interested in a Venturist >"cryonics-supportive community"- > >Dave's recently reiterated proposal certainly has some appeal. For example, >it has drawn the attention of a long-lapsed member of the Cryonics Society of >Michigan (now the Immortalist Society). But there are many obvious questions >which need to be examined: > >One class of prospective occupants would be retired cryonicists (i.e., not >working for a living) already in the Phoenix area. The only ones I can think >of offhand are Mae and myself, and we would not like to give up our home for >an apartment. Conceivably, I suppose, we could take two adjoining apartments >to give us enough space. There are some other cryoncists that do not work that live in the area. I only know of about half a dozen. Still this is a small group, I agree. Let's look at the other groups. > We would still have to give up our current very good >location, which is within a three minute drive of either our hospital or our >trained morticians. This is one important consideration. I would agree that the place we choose should be near a good hospital. The facility will also need to be near shopping, recreation and other amenities. Most of the residents (I assume) will come there to live, and only a small number will come there to die and be frozen. >Another class might be working cryonicists living in the Phoenix area. Aside >from Alcor employees, I don't know how many there are, and my impression is >that Alcor employees don't have a lot of money to invest. In the case of >people like Dave and Trudy, I suspect that they too would not like to give up >their home for an apartment. That is a good point. The best solution seems to be a large piece of land that could support dozens of apartments and dozens of houses. Some people will want a large house some others might want or only be able to afford a small apartment - if we can please everyone we can be more successful. Aside from the living buildings (houses, apartments, condos,) there could be a common swimming-pool area, spa, tennis courts, volley ball, putting green, gym, and a club house where anyone from a small apartment or big house (or if there also was a motel on the property) could go to and eat a meal, have meetings, have speakers come in, or otherwise interact with other cryoncists and make friends. >A third class might be retired cryonicists outside of the Phoenix area but >willing to move here. Again, I don't know how many there are, or whether they >would be willing to move into the type of apartment proposed. This is the largest class of prospects. Having options from small apartments to medium and large size houses would allow the facility to attract the largest number of residents. >If you are thinking of raising money from cryonicists who have no firm plans >to move in soon, if ever, but still might give financial support, that seems >like a weak reed. Stalwarts like Thomas Donaldson will give something to >almost any worthy cryonics-related cause, but how much it might total is >doubtful. > >The nub of the rub seems to lie in the fact that, in most cases, those able >to invest are unlikely to want to move in before "need." Joe Cannon could >have moved from Florida to Phoenix at any time, before he deteriorated, and >he knew that would improve his chances. But the same inertia and paralysis, >more or less, that keeps so many out of cryonics in the first place, also >prevents many of those in cryonics from doing all they might to improve their >chances. The path of least resistance is the road to oblivion. > >Of course you (Dave) have intimated that the project could be, in the >beginning or in part, just an ordinary apartment project, but owned or >controlled by cryonicists with a view to eventually having mostly cryonicists >as tenants or share-owners. It seems to me the best way to finance this facility would be to buy a 40 acre parcel on the north edge of Scottsdale now (The best land for the money) and let the city grow to and around the parcel. I estimate it will take 5 to 10 years. In the meantime, anyone living there would not be 3 minutes from a hosptal but maybe 15 minutes from Mayo Hospital, (Not the Mayo Clinic n east Scottsdale but the new Mayo Hospital near the north border of Scottsdale) one of the best in the world. And in some cases (I realize not in Robert Ettinger's, but for others that live in some parts of the city) even though they live closer in miles to a hospital the drive time (at certain times of the day) might be more than 15 minutes. A 40 acre parcel on the north edge of town (Scottsdale) would cost about 1 million dollars today. A similar 40 acre parcel in the middle of town today costs about 5 million dollars to ten million dollars. So those people who were the initial investors could expect their investment to appreciate, ALTHOUGH I CAN NOT GUARANTEE IT - there is some risk in any investment. After the land is secured, the construction of, perhaps, six small apartment units might begin. If tenants could be found for these right away that would be good, but if not, the units could be rented (similar to motel rooms) to cryonics visitors from time to time, and eventually full-time tenants could be found. When a person wanted a house (rather than an apartment) they could enter into a 99 year ground lease for a part of the 40 acres (a quarter to a half acre is a nice size lot) and then they could build their own house as large or small as they like, put a wall around it if the liked When the first six apartments eventually became filled with full-time residents, then a second phase could begin with 6 more. Or perhaps phase two would be for 12 units. Then phase three and so on. The 40 acre site is large enough for dozens of homes and/or apartments or condos. After there were a certain amount of full-time residents living there, the common amenities could be built and each resident would pay a small fee for their use. That's when we would build the pool, gym, etc. > In that case, money could be raised from any real >estate investor, as well as cryonicists. This could be funded by people making tax-deductable donations to the Venturists AND people investing directly into the project. When Alcor wanted to have a nice facility in Scottsdale, that's what Steve, I and other Alcor members did. We formed an LLC and Alcor owns a part of it, and members also own part of it. As one of the investors, I have seen the value of my investment rise. We could form an LLC to own the land and the Venturists could own a part this LLC (depends on how much they could raise in donations) and individuals could own a part. The Venturists could eventually operate an assisted living facility in part of the overall community. Although the majority of the facility would be owned by the investors. They would want to make a return on their investment, see the investment grow in value, and create a nice place for themselves to live now or perhaps retire to someday. > It might be more attractive than >average, with more stable and responsible occupants, and perhaps lower >overhead owing to some volunteer caretaking. I believe you have also >intimated--and demonstrated in the past--that you are willing to give your >own time and expertise in planning and negotiation and management. >The burden should not fall only on you, but the leadership will. As you know, >the only way to get these things off the ground is to make your plans and >then launch them--make it a fact rather than a mere potential. That didn't >work last time, to be sure, but maybe it would now. If I had informal commitments for enough supporters to purchase the initial land assuming the whole project met with their approval before they were fully committed, I would start the work to form a committee to investigate moving on with this. If I had informal committments from even a few potential larger investors or contributors (say an initial, total amount of 4 or 5 hundred thousand dollars, (say 5 people who would each want to invest $100,000 or more) I think I could raise the rest. >Anyway, if the Venturists launch a venture, Mae and I will support it, >although we won't at this time pledge a specific dollar amount. Thank you. Dave Pizer >Robert Ettinger >Cryonics Institute >Immortalist Society >http://www.cryonics. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=12893