X-Message-Number: 13010 From: Keith Rene Dugue <> Subject: Responses to #13003,13004 and 13007 about the DAF Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:24:03 -0800 Scott Badger Wrote: "After giving it some thought, however, I too find it difficult to subscribe to the DAF hypothesis." Don't worry Scott many do. "I would suggest though that it is not the central issue. I would say that the primary fallacy that people use in these situations has to do with the extrapolative cognitions Mr. Dugue referred to." I am not trying to say why most people select death over life just that one can not escape suffering through death. "IOW, I don't think it's so much that people choose death because they believe that death will be some sweet release from their suffering. " But many do exactly that. For those of us who have spent any time around the dying all too often it is exactly what we hear. Code of Medical Ethics, American Medical Association states the following: "It is *understandable*, though tragic, that some patients in extreme duress such as those suffering from a terminal, painful, debilitation illness may come to decide that death is preferable to life." The DAF is something that pervades our culture. Also, it is the terminally ill that are far more numerous than the suicidal. "At this point I should point out what appears to be a minor conflict in your statements (if I understand them correctly). " "You later state:" After we are aware nature has done most of it's job. We might avoid thinking about it or we might not. Survival mechanisms are not absolute. They just have to work most of the time for most organisms. "My sense is that your first assertion is closer to the truth. Significantly high levels of anxiety more generally provoke obsessional thinking as opposed to avoidant thinking." Again , I am only saying that you can not escape suffering through death. The rest of what I have said is just a sidelight about possible explanations but my argument is not dependant on it. "At any rate, pragmatically speaking, I sense that it will be more helpful to assist people with suicidal ideations to focus on their irrational interpretations and extrapolations rather than attempt to explain and refute the DAF hypothesis." If those are your objectives wrt to this discussion , then you have my best wishes. "Even so, the DAF hypothesis may have something to contribute to better understanding the larger picture." I think what it has to offer is to provide a way to see the truth. Mike Perry Wrote: "To me, it might be said that one can "benefit" from some things without being aware of them. " But what I said was: "What one can not be aware of is irrelevant to that individual." Can not be aware is unknowable not unknown. One's nonexistence is unknowable. "There might pain I have never experienced, and I benefit by not experiencing it, I would say, even in dreamless sleep, when effectively I am, temporarily, nonexistent." Your analogy is not complete because in death/nonexistence you are not aware of anything and in life most people are aware of pain and that there exists pain that they are not familiar with. "Again, I think one can benefit from *not* experiencing a negative, even when unaware. " This is true only if you exist to appreciate that you did not experience it. "With this I disagree. Would you rather be trapped in a lake of lava forever, or totally oblivious? Or closer to home, suppose an evil terrorist has kidnapped you, who is very good at excruciating, utterly unbearable, horrifying torture. And he is going to kill you, but you have a choice. (1) You can elect to take a painless, lethal injection that will end your life after 6 hours of total unconsciousness. (2) You can be wide awake but tortured for 6 hours first, then killed. These are your only two choices. Which would you choose? If it is (1), how do you justify this? Being totally unconscious, it would seem you cannot appreciate the benefit. So would you then choose torture, or not care one way or the other?" These questions are outside the scope of the DAF. There are other reasons why people choose to die but to escape suffering is illogical and irrational. Of course, wrt the DAF it would not matter either way. You see the trap comes from the fact that we have this tendency to extrapolate to nowhere. When one reads through theses options he has the unfair advantage "of being around " after he is dead in his mental simulation. He is dead but his mental presence is there in the future to appreciate any advantages resulting from his death. Our process of extrapolation places us there in the future where we should not be because we don't exist. This is where our mental simulation of the future departs from reality. Examining this more closely we see that there are three things of significance present in the mental simulation and they are: 1. Our corpse/ nonexistence 2. Our mental presence 3. Advantages resulting from our death Let's correct this mental simulation and reanalyze it. Let's delete the mental presence. Once this is done we can say absolutely nothing about our future. Our future becomes completely opaque to us. With the observer , Our mental presence, gone we are unable to say anything about 1 and 3 because we can't see past our death/nonexistence. It is in fact the very mechanism of extrapolation that distorts our view of reality. This is kind of like a mental heisenberg uncertainty principle. This is what causes the death/nonexistence option to feel intuitively correct to most people (myself included). We have to artificially shut off this extrapolation mechanism ,for example , by imagining that we have reached a brick wall at the point of our death. Even with this, our sense of self can sometimes get in the way and we jump around the wall to a distorted future. DAF's relationship to cryonics is that we must be prepared for a possible time when we can not think clearly and must rely upon our earlier judgem ent. It is difficult enough to do this in a perfect setting not to mention the death bed. Dave Pizer's comments on why some don't get suspended and what can happen in the end along with Ettinger's comments about the psychology of death having many strange elements prompted me to talk about the DAF. I have observed it for many years and at times very close. I personally know of someone where the DAF was one of the causes of them not getting suspended. Everyone around them including the doctors just reinforced the DAF. I hope that things like this don't happen to anyone else. Keith R. Dugue NO SPAM -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com> Comment: !!! 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