X-Message-Number: 13773
From: 
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:22:39 EDT
Subject: getting there from here

Some comments on Dave Pizer's post today (#13767, partly excerpted below):
 
>There comes a time when we can do reversible cryonics suspensions and
 >around the same time, there is a technology, (I'll call it the "Youth
 >Pill") that becomes available and people quit dying.  They no longer feel
 >they need cryonics.  At least they don't want to donate their time and
 >energy to it for the main reward that cryonics will be there on the very
 >slight chance they will need it.
 
Two points: 

(a) As to maintaining and reviving existing patients, I believe this will be 
done partly, as Dave says, because of the continuing interest of living 
people in their frozen friends and relatives; but also it will be done 
because the legal and financial structure exists. Even if cryonics were to 
stop growing altogether, Cryonics Institute certainly would continue to 
function (care for its patients) and to grow financially.

(b) As to growth in membership and patients, the era of immortality (or 
greatly extended life) would not necessarily mean vanishing interest in the 
last-resort option of cryonics. People will be more aware, life will have 
more value, and the relative cost will be much less. (See Fred Pohl's AGE OF 
THE PUSSYFOOT.) After all, people today, especially children, get routine 
inoculations against diseases that now are rare. 

> The question is: "At a time in the future when the world is getting very
 >crowded, why would anyone want to reanimate frozen dead people to take up
> more room and resources?"
 
It's not a question of "anyone," but of the relatives, friends, and 
hirelings. And if cryonics continues small--which is Dave's concern--then its 
contribution to population pressures will be minimal. And we don't 
deliberately kill elderly and sick people because they take up room and use 
resources.

 > If I am correct (that the only reason people working in cryonics today is
 >because *they* are going to need it for themselves some day), and if I am
 >correct that people in the future will be immortal *before* they can figure
 >out how to renaimate the frozen dead people, then there is going to be a
 >time-window when no one is going to want to run a cryonics company for the
 >present reasons - and maybe not for other reasons either.
 
As I said, with respect to Cryonics Institute specifically, if everything 
else came to a dead stop, we could still pay people to keep the place 
operating indefinitely.

 > Before I get to the next point, we need to all agree on one thing, and that
 >is growth is needed to raise the odds that the patients will get reanimated
 >some day.

No question--growth good, stagnation bad.
  
> Why is the growth rate in cryonics such a failure in the last few years?
 >(This may not apply to CI, I am more familiar with Alcor and CryoCare).
 
It does not apply to Cryonics Institute. Our growth in the last couple of 
year has been at its highest rate ever, and faster than that of any other 
organization. But it is still very, very far from satisfactory.

> For years Alcor did in-house research.  

First, let me note that Alcor has not been idle in terms of improving 
suspension capability, even though they may not have done much in terms of 
new cryoprotectants etc., leaving that to 21CM etc. And Alcor people are 
working on BioTransport, which they hope will utilize 21CM methods or/and 
other advanced methods.

Second, Cryonics Institute has an in-house (and also out-house, excuse the 
expression) research program, although not one of industrial or academic 
strength. We are trying a variety of new procedures, including both old and 
new cryoprotectants, and have dozens of specimens awaiting evaluation. We 
have had trouble finding independent labs to do the microscopy and 
evaluations, but are currently trying out one and have possible lines to 
others. (Suggestions welcome.) 

Results will be reported on our web site and in THE IMMORTALIST, and there 
will be no patents or proprietary interest. Everyone is welcome to look at 
our results and use them any way they see fit. 

>Cryonics cost too much.  

As some newcomers may not know, Cryonics Institute's minimum suspension fee 
(whole body, Option One) is only $28,000. We also have an Option Two 
membership plan with no membership fee and mandatory dues of only $120/year 
or $35 quarterly, minimum suspension fee $35,000. (Option One is a life 
membership, one-time payment of $1,250 and no mandatory dues.) Introduction 
of Option Two last year produced significant but not especially impressive 
results.

>We have lost our enthusiasm.  
 
 Again, not at Cryonics Institute. I am gradually fading from the scene, but 
others are taking hold and in years to come will do a better job. We get 
offers of help all the time; our problem is organizing the help effectively, 
and we are making progress.

>We don't offer any real value to the world as they see it.  
 
I think we do, for reasons I won't go into in order to save space, but even 
if that were true, so what? It's becoming more and more of a 
live-and-let-live world; you don't have to do my thing and I don't have to do 
yours.

I agree with Dave that we have a problem, and many sub-problems, but they are 
not intractable and not getting worse. Things aren't very good, and they 
aren't very bad. We just have to keep plugging, and the wind is at our backs. 
Every advance in medicine and technology makes our thesis more credible. 

We do need better leadership, and some day it will appear. Meanwhile, we 
mediocrities must keep working to the best of our limited abilities. 
 
Robert Ettinger
Cryonics Institute
Immortalist Society
http://www.cryonics.org

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=13773