X-Message-Number: 13794
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:23:20 -0500
From: david pizer <>
Subject: Replys to replys -briefly

Thanks to everyone who sent me private messages.  I have been out of town
and will try to answer them all soon.  Here are brief comments to some of
those who posted here.  I am an optimist.  I have personaly brought in a
lot of members.  But I stand by my original posting and I still think we
should improve our odds by making changes now.


>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:36:33 +0100
>From: Phil Rhoades <>
>Subject: The failure to get reanimated - a 3rd possibility

snip

>There might be a 3rd reason - people who were alive a long time ago are 
>likely to be valuable for a social reason - a living history.

snip

I think this has merit.  But why not do all the other things that are
needed to improve our chances?  This reason is given a lot but I do not
want to risk my eternal life or eternal death on this alone.

>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:29:27 -0400
>From: Thomas Donaldson <>
>Subject: why we don't NEED lots of people

>To Dave Pizer:

snip

>3. The number of people required to keep suspendees in suspension
>   does not increase as rapidly as the number of suspendees. Although
>   research may take much longer than if more people engaged in it,
>   only a few people will eventually work out how to revive all those
>   who can be revived. This becomes even stronger if those few people
>   themselves can expect to live much longer than 100 years. In short,
>   so long as we don't run into ACTIVE OPPOSITION, even a small group
>   of cryonicists will eventually win out. Sure, it will take much
>   longer, but then what is 200 years if you expect to live afterwards
>   for thousands?

The reason people run cryonics companies today is because they are going to
need it themselves.  The people who run cryonics companies in the future
may not have this special motivation.  So I believe a lot of relatives of a
lot of patients is a good form of insurance that patients will get
reanimated.  How can you dissagree with this?

>From: 
>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:22:39 EDT
>Subject: getting there from here

>Some comments on Dave Pizer's post today (#13767, partly excerpted below):
  
>Two points: 

>(a) As to maintaining and reviving existing patients, I believe this will be 
>done partly, as Dave says, because of the continuing interest of living 
>people in their frozen friends and relatives; but also it will be done 
>because the legal and financial structure exists. Even if cryonics were to 
>stop growing altogether, Cryonics Institute certainly would continue to 
>function (care for its patients) and to grow financially.

I hope this is true for CI and for Alcor.  There certainly has been a lot
of work to protect the assets.  In Alcor, Steve Bridge created a
magnificent trust.  But I have lived a full life and I know human nature
very well.  If there is a BIG amount of money in benefit for frozen (and
very helpless) people, that big amount is a BIG temptation for dishonest
people to get on boards closer to the money.  It is hard enough to protect
your money when you are alive.  I suspect it will be harder when we are
dead for a while.

Therefore my point was that a larger number of patients, would create a
larger number of people who had relatives and therefore more interested
people to watch over the patients and their assets.  I am agreeing with you
that financial structure is important, my point is that growth is also
important - and it is not happening very fast.  When I read your book 15
years ago, I figured I better hurry and get signed up lest there were so
many in front of me I would have to take a number.  :=)

Both organizations seem to feel confidant in their financial structures,
but no one seems to be happy with the slow growth in cryonics.  

>(b) As to growth in membership and patients, the era of immortality (or 
>greatly extended life) would not necessarily mean vanishing interest in the 
>last-resort option of cryonics. People will be more aware, life will have 
>more value, and the relative cost will be much less. (See Fred Pohl's AGE OF 
>THE PUSSYFOOT.) After all, people today, especially children, get routine 
>inoculations against diseases that now are rare. 

What concerns me is that if only a tiny fraction of 1% of the current
population is interested enough to sign-up when we are all mortal, how much
smaller will that number be if we all feel we are immortal?  Aside from us
present 800 or so cryonicists that number may also be 0 as it is now?

snip

>> For years Alcor did in-house research.  

>First, let me note that Alcor has not been idle in terms of improving 
>suspension capability, even though they may not have done much in terms of 
>new cryoprotectants etc., leaving that to 21CM etc. 

I am not convinced that Alcor has significantly improved its suspension
capability in the last 10 years or 20 years from when Jerry Leaf and Mike
Darwin were doing them.  It seems that we are still using techniques and
chemicals  that are similar to the original ones of years ago.  I have
never been a beliver that a member can always get a good "remote"
transport.  Alcor officials have been warning for years that there are a
lot of things that can go wrong in a remote transport.  I have seen
suspensions where the patient took a turn for the good and the transport
team was on the plane home when the patient then took a turn for the worse.
 If you count how many patients get a really good (by present standards)
suspension compared to a really bad one, I don't think the numbers really
shine.  Its a question of logistics. 

I have always felt that it is safer and easier for the patient to come to
Arizona and be close to Alcor to deanimate there to increase their odds of
getting a better suspension.  I can not speak for CI.

As I said in my original posting, (someone in authority please correct me
if I am wrong) at first it seemed that 21CM was doing  more research for
cryonics.  Now it seems they are doing more research in other areas to make
money stating then the extra money will be used for cryonics.  At least
that it the impression I have from recent postings and conversations.  *I
am not saying this is wrong.*  It is 21CM's sole right to do what they
want.  I was just pointing out that there does not seem to be that much
research being done specificaly for cryonics.  So for us to sit back and
say we are all safe now because there is a 21CM, I think is a mistake.  If
you were to ask the people who run CI if they NEED more money to do
cryonics work, I think they would say yes.  Saul and Bill will be the first
ones to tell you that if other wealthy persons would do their share the
odds would improve.  If they don't want to say it, I will.

On your comments about BioTransport:

Many people have doubts that BioTransport will ever materialize as an
operational company for the benefit of all as originally proposed.  It
turns out that there are many more problems then originally considered.  

Again, I am an optimist but I have to be realistic. 

Dave

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=13794