X-Message-Number: 14085
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Badger <>
Subject: Re: Bringing back the dead

George Smith wrote:

"In message #14057, John Krug mentioned a TV show on
communication with the dead and speculated on "talking
to" those already in cryonics suspension. And, in
reply, Scott Badger listed some valid questions
regarding this and commented how such might be better
delivered on "the Comedy Channel" (instead of the "Sci
Fi Channel").

Ladies and Gentlemen, if we ever truly wish to expand
the ranks of our membership in cryonics, I feel it
would be wise to understand the beliefs of the vast
majority of candidates out there."

OK

"Let's take this a step further.  If YOU are among the
estimated 20% who do NOT believe in some form of after
death survival of the human personality but someone
ridicules someone you personally respect who DOES,
will you not tend to feel alienated from the ridiculer
and his or her position?  Isn't that a normal human
tendency?"

RIDICULE?  Hold on there, partner. I recall that my
comment was prefaced with, "Personally, ..." as in,
"in my opinion" even if it wasn't so humble.

Stating one's personal position on a subject is
certainly very different from ridiculing someone
else's position.  I also recall signing my message,
"Respectfully submitted," precisely because I wanted
to emphasize my belief that everyone's right to their
opinion is to be respected regardless of whether I
agree with it or not. My apologies to Mr. Krug if he
felt personally insulted in some manner. 

Let me add, however, that George Smith also appears to
have misread my position.  I don't recall saying
anything about my beliefs regarding the afterlife. I
was referring to my beliefs regarding whether psychics
have the ability to communicate with the dead or not.

You go on to talk about NDE's.  I've read probably
10-12 books on this topic by Moody, Ring, Sabom, and
Morse (all Dr.'s, I believe). I regard NDE's as a very
interesting phenomenon and even have a research idea
aimed at determining the veracity of NDE'rs claims.
Most resuscitations of "clinically" dead people are
done in the field by emergency medical personnel these
days. I've been told that the improvements in
equipment available to these technicians are such that
if patients can't be revived by the time they arrive
at the hospital's emergency room, then the odds are
low that they will be revived at all.

Sooo, we do a double blind design where various
symbols or numbers are placed on top of the paramedic
truck and changed everytime the truck goes out. One of
the most commonly reported aspects of NDE's is
floating several feet above everyone else in the area
and looking down watching the action. If true, then
NDE'rs should be able to identify the symbol when they
are revived.

The biggest problem I see with NDE's is that many of
the experiences described have been duplicated
artificially by the likes of Wilder Penfield and his
electro-stimulation of various regions in the temporal
region of the brain.

Anyway, George Smith continues:

"So does it make sense to alienate as many as we can
by ridiculing their beliefs?  Or would it be wiser for
ALL concerned to position cryonics more honestly as
what it really is - a life extension procedure."

Whose doing all this ridiculing you speak of?  Or are
you still referring to me?  I think that ALCOR handles
the issues often raised by the religious quite well on
their web site.  They are sensitive and respectful. I
try to emulate this approach when I discuss these
issues with religious individuals because these
matters typically boil down to issues of faith and
that's OK.  

This reminds me. Someone once asked me, "What happens
to the suspendee's soul?" and I gave the response
about how frozen embryo's don't appear to grow up any
differently than any other child so this doesn't
appear to be a problem. The person replied that she
didn't believe a soul enters a body until a few months
before it is born. I forget her specific criteria ...
something to do with the nervous system, I think. So,
does anyone have a response for that?

Though I try to be respectful, I admit that I am more
openly skeptical of psychics, astrology, wiccan,
telekinesis, palmistry, dousing, and a host of other
pseudoscientific notions. In addition, I am proud of
my open skepticism. I carry the banner of science and
I voice my criticisms of these practitioners because I
believe they often bilk the public with their scams
and I believe that pseudoscience in general undermines
rational thought and behavior in our population. Some
have maintained that people buy products and services
because they are emotionally appealing, but I suspect
that ultimately, choosing cryonics is a very rational
decision making process that is often made in spite of
strong emotional inclinations to the contrary. 

George also stated:

"I personally feel that the NDE issue remains a
potential springboard for privately attracting, not
losing, cryonics candidates.  The personality
benefits from the NDE have been carefully surveyed,
tested and documented. These incidents involve people
who have been clinically dead for only minutes.  I
cannot help but wonder what testimony might result
from the first resuscitated cryonaut who has been
clinically dead for decades."

Interesting.  Are you proposing that people may be
more attracted to cryonics if we suggest that
suspendees are likely having extended NDE's and will
probably come back with great personality enhancements
or special knowledge of the afterworld because of
their extended stay? That's definitely an idea I've
not heard before, George.

I agree that we all need to be careful to insure that
prospects do not develop the impression that being
pro-cryonics is anti-spiritual/religion in any sense.
But I would like to think that those associated with
Cryonics would generally be regarded as highly
rational, critical thinkers, not prone to endorse the
plethora of paranormal claims out there. We're
regarded as being fringe enough as it is.

Best regards,

Scott Badger

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