X-Message-Number: 14606 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 23:07:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Ruthanna R Gordon <> Subject: Re: Alien humanity, highly doubtful > Message #14575 > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:38:39 -0400 > From: James Swayze <> > Subject: Re: Alien humanity, highly doubtful > References: <> > > At the risk of stunting my growth, going blind or having hair grow on > my pal..er ah inside my scalp...I must respond to this "Off > Topic" subject. ;) Although I agree with the possibility of the basic > premise here I do have trouble with some of the assumptions. Oh and I do > run the program. See responses below. Thank you for your insiteful comments. I agree with all of them, and have a few things to add on the subject of universal altruism (or lack thereof). Humans, for all our advancement, have not become all that much more civilized over time. Or, rather, pockets of us have gained the luxury to engage in altruism, but any barbarism that we were performing 20,000 years ago is still going on in some form today. There will always be barbarians, although hopefully the percentages will go down. We can expect any race we meet to still carry some vestige of whatever behaviors allowed it to survive until the point when altruism wasn't fatal. Having evolved/progressed to our current point, we are already aware of other sapient life right here on this planet. Whether this life is less advanced than us, equal in all the important ways, or even (by its own standards) more advanced, isn't particularly relevant. The evidence for some species, such as bonobos and African grey parrots (both of which can learn language to varying degrees) is mixed. We do know, from recent research, that dolphins use the equivalent of names with each other, which opens up the possibility that they may use other symbolic representation. Possibly the best example of human altruism I can think of is our efforts to save beached dolphins and whales. But we have NEVER tried to communicate to them the secrets of our technology or the heights of our philosophy. Assuming we ever do, it will be after many years of communicating directly with them. They are too alien, and they live in too different an environment, for a generic message to be understood even if we sent one out. That's right here on this planet. Hypothetically an advanced race could send out a fair amount of science in the 'universal language of mathematics,' but you can only get so far that way--it's probably mostly good, in practical terms, for announcing one's presence. Now, assuming an advanced species feeling altruistic towards the entire universe... Even humans wouldn't all agree that the highest form of altruism would be the gift of immortality. There are many possible things a species might want to do out of pure generosity, not all of which would make us happy. This could range from simply letting us know that they're there and are willing to wait as long as it takes for us to make it on our own (cosmic libertarians confident in our ability to make it by our own bootstraps) to offers (consensual or otherwise) of some sort of high-tech nirvana (Think Borg. It is a form of immortality, of course...). Let's not count on outsiders coincidentally having just the form of altruism that will make a small group of immortalists happy. A highly advanced species might be so used to having all the time it needs that it doesn't remember what it's like to be frustrated and short-lived at all! Or they could have a biology so different from ours that their secret of immortality would be useless to us (highly likely). One of my long-term goals is to be a comparative xenopsychologist. I look forward to first contact, but have no illusions that most (or even any) of those we meet are certain to be civilized by my standards. I certainly don't expect them to be saviors (I think we're gonna have to do it ourselves). I just hope some of them are as interested in communication as I am. Long life and infinite possibility, Ruthanna Gordon Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=14606