X-Message-Number: 15620
From: "Jeff Grimes" <>
Subject: Evasions
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:07:42 +0000

From: 
> 
> Probably most Cryonet readers don't even look at Grimes' posts any more.


Now I am seeing Mr. Ettinger "doing his thing." First, he avoids the issue for 
as long as possible. Then, if it won't go away, he tries to discredit the person
he doesn't want to deal with. This can be quite unpleasant and personal. 
Finally he reassures his members that he and his organization are doing 
everything they can, and it's all going well (except, he NEVER gives any 
specific details). 


This just makes me more suspicious than ever. Either this man is not running an 
up-front organization or--or what? Why not give simple answers to basic 
questions about procedures?

> Grimes seems to be just some poor soul who doesn't have a life and feels a 
> need to draw attention.


Here we get to the personal bit. He suggests I am asking questions just because 
I am looking for attention. In fact I asked the questions because they seem 
obvious to me, and originally (not any more!) I was interested in joining the 
Ettinger organization. My reason for asking the questions now is that I believe 
some sort of cover-up is going on.

> It seems pretty clear that, if we were to make 
> further responses to him, that would only encourage him to think he can 
> control the agenda and to make endless further demands for details and 
> argumentation. 


Why does this seem clear? I have already said, if I get the answers, that's it. 
I'm done. Or, if Mr. Ettinger will agree that he NEVER answers questions of this
kind, that will end the thread too, while proving that his organization is less
open than he claims. 

> Grimes is not a big deal on 
> Cryonet, as far as we can estimate.


Once again he belittles me instead of addressing the very serious issues that I 
raised.

> So it seems best just to ignore him, in 
> the main. Or, of course, if he wants to keep posting essentially the same 
> message over and over again, we can do that too, with very little effort, 
> until Dr. Brown gets tired of it.


Here Dr. Ettinger appeals to the list owner of CryoNet to suppress my questions 
if I continue to ask them. I think it is disgraceful for the owner of an 
organization to suggest that I should be silenced, because I ask questions that 
he doesn't like.

> As to questions from others, and especially those new to cryonics, they are 
> always welcome. 


That's what I was told, when I first asked a question. Then I learned enough to 
ask better questions. Magically these questions were not welcome any more.

> As to details of suspension procedures, we are always glad of suggestions, 
> either from knowledgeable people or even from beginners, 

This is not true. 

> We make no fancy claims; we just offer our evidence and experience and rely 
> on the judgment of individuals. It has worked out reasonably well. In the 
> last week we had eight new members, continuing a two year run in which we 
> have had membership gorwth exceeding that of any other organization, in both 
> relative and absolute terms. 
> 
> No, we will never be satisfied, but we will continue to do our best, as I'm 
> sure the other organizations will also.


This fatherly stuff is supposed to be reassuring but it does not reassure me at 
all, because it is not an honest or ethical way to run an organization: Refusing
to tell people the very basic information and then telling them not to worry, 
everything is alright. Remember my questions were not especially technical. I 
wanted to know, for instance, how long it has taken CI people to move from 
deathbed to the laboratory. A very fundamental fact! CI has complained that 
other organizations take too long to do this. It has claimed that its 
performance is better. But it WILL NOT give the results in hours. This may be 
because one of its people took THREE WEEKS to make the journey (as implied by 
Chamberlain of Alcor). Is this true? CI won't say.


My full list of questions is repeated below. Once again, it is very simple to 
stop me from posting here again. Either answer the questions, or admit that you 
will NEVER answer these questions, from anyone.

Jeff Grimes.

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=15620