X-Message-Number: 16478
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:44:36 -0500
From: david pizer <>
Subject: How to be effective and never give up

Pizer replies to Platt.  Followed by a brief little story about not giving up.

>From: Charles Platt <>
>Subject: Taking People Seriously
>To Dave Pizer--

>Dave, I think you take me at least somewhat seriously. But I am not signed
>up with any organization providing cryonics services, at this time.

Charles, I was not talking about whether *I* take certain cryonics-people
seriously.  My brief argument's conclusion was/is that new people thinking
about cryonics probably will not take your, (or anyone who is not signed
up), views that cryonics could be a way to immortality seriously if you are
not signed up yourself.  I think that is pretty obvious but I can build a
strong argument for that conclusion for you if you see more than a few
small exceptions to the conclusion.?????

This first little post was the start of some new brief posts I intend to
regularly submit in this forum in an attempt to find out what people in our
movement think and what our strengths and weaknesses are before I go
outside the movement when VentureVille is completed in a couple of years.
I think the residents of VentureVille can fill a philosophical void that
exists now about biological immortalism.  Once we have a place where
like-minded people can *be* together for mutual support, I hope we will
develop a technique to bring large amounts of persons to the biological
immortality movement.  It was/is really great to get so much feedback on
this first post, and I hope it continues.  With these brief posts, I hope
to spark debates on the forum about the subjects that  will be our main
discussions, (in just a few years), with people outside the movement.  I
want to make all the mistakes, (if there are some to be made), in this
forum, as the greater forum of the rest of the world may not be as forgiving.

>Some people may take years to reach the point where they are willing to
>spend money on cryonics. (Personally I procrastinated for two years, till
>I decided the expense was justified.) Other people may allow their
>membership to lapse because they don't like a particular organization and
>don't feel any affinity with competing organizations. (I've followed this
>path more than once.) But surely if someone has something serious to say,
>we should take them seriously.

Perhaps there could be a situation where the power of serious words alone
would overcome the fact that the speaker has not put *his* money where his
mouth is.  I havn't seen an example of that yet.  The argument for cryonics
is a powerful one regardless of who is saying it, and even though most of
the world is not ready to pay attention to it yet, mostly the people who
are putting it forward with the highest rate of success (as measured by
getting others to sign up) are people who are already signed up themselves.
 I think you would agree, Charles, that if someone was talking up cryonics
and then admitted that he/she was not signed up him/herself, the listener
would be, at the very least, puzzled.

Even if the speaker said something like "I think cryonics is great but I'm
not signed up because there are not any good companies doing cryonics right
now" the speaker's opinion that there are not any good cryonics companies
right now would tend to weaken the force of the presentation.  The logical
thought that must then come to the listener's mind is:  "If this is so
good, why after 30 or 40 years of trying to do it are there no good

Of course there are explanations to this, like: there really are good
companies and Charles is just wrong, or even though its a good idea, the
movement is too small to allow for good companies, etc etc.  I am not
defending whether there are good companies, I just use the above as an
example of why a person who is not signed up is probably not going to be an
effective "salesman/woman" for cryonics.

Charles, I do understand your position.  You are not happy with any
existing cryonics company at the present time - I can respect your views.
(I am not totally happy and I don't think anyone in the movement is).  But
we are/were working from inside the companies (I am not active anymore) to
try to make changes and you are working from outside them.  I am not saying
one way is better than the other. Perhaps, a combination of both is the
best, as long as it is done in a proper way.   My work in my earlier
article was not about what is the best way to make cryonics better, but
simply an observation on what ways a person may best help to get others
involved, and that has the assumption that more people and more resources
will improve the odds.  And, I will be the first to admit there can be
other ways to reach that goal besides what I suggest, I just don't know
what they are, I will be posting little blurbs in the future to try to find

Lastly, I would not be being fully honest if I did not add that even though
I do think at times you are trying to save yourself, (and, perhaps,
others), I also think at times, perhaps because of frustration, you are
trying to kill yourself.  I hope you resolve this problem to the former.  

Alghough I may be wrong about my guess about your situation, I, myself, was
once in that situation many years ago.  I was mountain climbing in the
Navajo Nation in northern Arizona with my good friend, Chief Yellowhorse.
We were on our way to see the ancient, and secret burial cave of the
elders.  For many years, the elders were entombed in this secret place high
in the dangerous cliffs in a remote area of the reservation.  We were not
going there to rob graves or anything like that, but just to observe the

On the climb there, somehow I got myself hanging from a cliff with over a
1,000 foot drop to sheer rocks below.  I hung on through pain and
frustration, trying, but unable to get up just a few feet to a ledge above.
 The pain of the fear of about to be falling to my death was so great, that
I considered letting go to stop the pain, (as falling below would have
stopped the pain). 

As the pain finally got so intense, I was just about to let go when the
Chief, (who was an expert mountain climber), got a hold of me, (from below
somehow), and helped me to the ledge and safety.  I still get goosebumps
remembering that situation.  My point is that sometimes fear and
frustration over what one thinks is a failure to save oneself in some
people, (at least myself long ago) might lead to brief thoughts of just
giving up.  I think that experience has helped me to think about things
like this in advance, and giving up now is just not an option.

Sorry for the long post, Charles, I thought you might need some cheering
up.  Now get out there and save some souls (using souls in the secular way
for you).

Dave Pizer

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