X-Message-Number: 16480
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:05:31 -0400
From: Deathist Lurker Girl <>
Subject: And your point, Detective Epstein, *is*...?

>Louis Epstein wrote:
>An interesting response from the Deathist Lurker
>Girl,whose earlier post I did read in the archives.
>Somewhat surprising to me,also...I got the impression
>before that some guy with an unrequited crush on her
>had subscribed her to Cryonet,and she was putting up
>with it just to read,at the serratia'ed edge of her
>But now we find that she's so dedicated to Deathist
>Lurking she's registered a domain for it(website said
>to be coming soon)...and subscribed here from it.

Yes, all of that is true (except you have the crush thing sort of backwards 
but no matter...).  Do you believe it's not possible to cultivate an 
greater interest in something that had not been so compelling 
before?  People change with time and experience.  Yet you present these 
facts as some kind of gee-whiz anomaly to be wondered at, 
open-mouthed.  What's the big deal?

I own a lot of domains.  Domains can be had, for a year's time, for less 
than the price of a pair of movie tickets.  So I wouldn't say that I was 
"so dedicated," just that it seemed like a cool idea at the time, and I 
went with it.

>Researching on the web I see she's also connected to
>a group of former LDS who have by and large opted to
>leave the frying pan of Mormonism for the fires of
>fundamentalism(like Ed Decker's lot) but for the cold
>wastes of atheism.(I know John Grigg is a believer
>in LDS,but for atheism she'll find more sympathizers
>here than I will...same for my belief that PFLAG and
>"Pride" exist more to spread misconceptions about
>homosexuality that homosexuals want believed,than to
>dispel myths about it).

What's with the dossier, Louis?  You've proven that you know how to do a 
"whois" and how to use a search engine.  Goody for you! Do you really think 
anyone gives a flying rat's posterior about the minutiae of my Internet 
life?  It might be germane if you had unearthed evidence that I was somehow 
secretly thwarting the cause of cryonics, but my past experience with the 
LDS church has nothing to do with the point I was making regarding being 
considered a legitimate supporter of the immortalist community.  "Cold 
wastes of atheism" sounds suspiciously pejorative, and your comments 
regarding homosexuality appear both pejorative, *and* poorly informed, but 
those are separate discussions and are clearly off-topic here.

>I've never been LDS myself,but have studied their
>pure-gerontocracy hierarchy from outside for most of
>my life...the moldering Struldbruggs of Temple Square
>may serve as a leading indicator of the effects of
>extended lifespans on societal institutions.This is
>an institution that turned to a man born in 1876 as
>its leader in 1970...that is led in 2001 by a man who
>remembers the day his father replaced the family
>horse-wagon with a Model T.
>How many LDS Apostles does it take to change a light
>Five...one to call the new bulb,one to lay hands on
>it,one to screw it in,one to set it apart,and one to
>give it a blessing.
>(But if it's in their meeting room,then all twelve
>or fifteen must unanimously vote to release the old
>bulb and sustain the new one).
>I watch the General Conference on satellite TV every
>six months just to see who the new unanimously elected
>candidates for things are and update my records.One
>guy I corresponded with years ago sent me the "Triple
>Combination" of LDS scriptures but I've scarcely looked
>into it.

Off-topic-o-rama.  Again, what's your point?  If people want to learn LDS 
church history, there are numerous websites and mailing lists dedicated to 
that field of study.  This ain't one of them.

>Anyway...there are certainly many different ways to seek to
>end the reign of death.And while I echo Kennita's feeling
>that there is no reason for not trying,I don't reject the
>DLG to the point of not caring enough about her to be willing
>to help grab her arms and drag her kicking and screaming to
>the lifeboat under the disapproving stares of Mike Perry and
>Jeffrey Soreff.
>"Death,thou shalt die!"

I will place this last quote from Mr. Epstein's post alongside a similar 
one from Robert Ettinger:

>Surely you can (and should, if necessary) coerce your child not to harm or
>endanger herself. And if you once admit that, how can you draw a clear line
>between a child and someone who is child-like in certain respects, stupid or
>ignorant or weak?
>An opinion opposite to that of Mill was taken by the various churches,
>especially the Roman Catholics in earlier times. They held--very
>logically--that not only coercion but even torture was permissible for the
>supremely important goal of saving souls.
>In the cryonics context, a question is whether you should freeze a relative
>who had not wanted it, if you have that option around the time of his death.
>Certainly a case can be made for disregarding the decedent's wishes.

It is unclear to me whether Mr. Ettinger is *sanctioning* the actions of 
some authority figure(s) in determining that another adult is acting 
unwisely (and therefore child-like/stupid/etc.) and consequently using 
force to coerce that individual into a more safe/wise/desirable (per the 
authority figures' reckoning ) choice.

I cannot imagine anything more odious, or a future I would less like to be 
a part of, than one where these types of "Big Brother" actions were 

It is, of course, necessary to prevent actions that would harm others- but 
everywhere else, governmental authority should be considered a necessary 
evil, administered with the lightest of touches; and an individual human 
being's autonomy should be considered the most sacred of rights.

People will always make choices that other people consider foolish.  There 
are probably several people on this list who ride motorcycles- or fly in 
small private aircraft.  These are things I consider too risky for myself, 
but I would never dream of trying to mandate that the people who enjoy 
these things be deprived of them.  Their lives- their choices.

My final point is that I don't think it's in anyone's best interests for 
any alert and oriented adult to be dragged "kicking and screaming" 
anywhere.  It's neither good for the dragger nor the draggee.

I would like to explore further the ethical considerations of tossing 
non-consenting deanimated adults headlong into the LN tank (and I'd better 
watch out...I live almost within shouting distance of CI...) but I had a 
12-hour shift at work today that somehow managed to turn into 14 hours.  So 
I'd better quit rambling and go to bed now.

Oh... and thanks for making me feel like a celebrity, just for a few short 
minutes, Louis.  Now I kinda know how Madonna feels when those 
paparazzo-types sift through her garbage so they can tell the National 
Enquirer what brand of yogurt she eats and whatnot  ;-)

DLG  (uhhh, I mean Debra, the ex-Mormon atheist)

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