X-Message-Number: 16568 From: "George Smith" <> References: <> Subject: Re: David Pizer's call for Ideas Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:06:32 -0700 In message #16558 Davis Pizer wrote, "It seems that some of the basic premises of this new and powerful argument must address: 1. Why life is valuable to live; 2. Why biological immortality is apt to come along soon; 3. Why cryonics might provide a vehicle to that future time. 4. Why the future will be a great place to be. "Each premise is very complicated and it can be a small argument on the way to combining all four. "The first premise, why life is valuable to live, must show why life is valuable to live as an end, and not merely as a means to some other end. It can be a means and an end, but the premise must not merely be a means. I think we present immortalists do realize that life is valuable for the quality and enjoyment of living it, in and of that reason(s) alone. How do we convince others of this? The first premise could also address why being dead is not a good thing. "I believe the first premise is where the most work is needed to convince others that the rest of the argument is worth considering. If they are not convinced by the end of the argument for the fist premise, they are not going to seriously consider anything further in this work." David, I think that your other three areas are excellent but I honestly have come to believe that anyone who needs to have #1 explained is doing us all a BIG favor by choosing death. Until we can come to install mental health (something I believe WILL become possible in time), I truly consider the many, many people who NEED arguments for #1 to have an acute and terminal case of mental illness, by definition. #4 is where #1 might be addressed. IF the brain rot which causes people to believe that life is NOT worth living (a popular verbal claim despite their constant scurrying to avoid the onslaught of the Grim Reaper when He actually approaches THEM!) can be combated it surely will come from the HOPE that the future could be better and even desirable. We are attracted by pleasure and repelled by pain. (Even the search for meaning and the satisfaction of our curiosity is a form of pleasure, thus moving both religion and philosophy within the simplicity of this dualistic motivation paradigm). The problem is that our current largely illiterate and media controlled masses believe that "Life is pain" (the usual translation of Gautama Buddha's "dhukha", which is more properly translated as "frustration" and is therefore little better than "pain" anyway) and that life is "a veil of tears" (from our Judeo Christian Islamic heritage) and that life is meaningless (from our existentialist philosophers). To all these brilliant purveyors of "life as crap" I say, GOOD RIDDANCE! The fact we need to convince them that "life is valuable to live" is a sound argument to NOT do so. If they honestly believe that death is more valuable than life (?!!!!!), so be it and good bye! Next! George Smith Elitist and Proud of It. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16568