X-Message-Number: 16635 From: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:01:20 EDT Subject: Thanks to Michael Donahue My thanks to Michael Donahue for his post. While I don't share all his opinions I appreciate his deep eloquence and core values. I agree that this forum is no place for the discussion of gay rights. However, the fundamental issues of freedom and autonomy raised are important. Many, many people are afraid of cryonics because they quite rightly feel they will be totally helpless, at the mercy of others, and cut off even from the oversight of family and friends by their dislocation in time. Their fear is visceral, understandable, and completely comprehensible given how often just this kind of abuse happens today in governments, religions, hospitals, nursing homes, families, the military and virtually every other human institution where people have control (of varying degrees) over other peoples' lives. I feel this fear intensely, and it has nothing to do with worries about how my sexuality will be handled. It has everything to do with my knowledge of history and human nature; based not only on reading, but extensive travels and contacts with many human cultures. In his wonderful book about his experiences as a concentration camp inmate MAN''S SEARCH FOR MEANING, Victor Frankel observes that "the best of us did not survive." He notes that the most decent and caring people were weeded out by their own humanity. The private hateful e-mail I have received, and the dehumanizing position taken by several of the people who posted here are evidence that this fear is justified. I think there is also a marketing lesson to be learned about people who get involved in cryonics. While I expect this to change, it has been the case that cryonics is overwhelmingly populated by single and childless people (including married couples) with a disproportionate number being male. I'm speaking not just of activists here, but also of members. Understanding the reasons for this is important because the dominant group in any undertaking de facto establishes a "culture" in what they write, how they behave, and the kind of internal institutions they create. There is a very different "feel" to social functions hosted by Seventh Day Adventists (which I sometimes attend) versus those hosted by critical care medicine physicians. People will join a group to a great extent on whether they are comfortable with that group -- not just its expressed ideals, but also with the social environment. Groups that respect autonomy and which treat people with decency aren't always the most successful in the short run. Decency is basic respect for the rights of others as defined by allowing them autonomy providing they do not use force or fraud on their neighbors, or advocate the same. However, the history of groups that don't do this is uniformly not a pretty one. Ultimately, hate and fear driven agendas focused on small groups of people get broadened as both the early minorities are disposed of (and fresh scapegoats are needed) and as growing fear creates dissent among the ranks which must be dealt with. I've personally seen this in many different societies; until you've witnessed public floggings and a beheading it is hard to have a visceral feel for this! Islamic Iran is currently pulling back from exactly this kind of vicious spiral. Afghanistan is still heavily in its grip. In the rigorous scientific sense, I don't know which is the best group survival strategy. The US, which is pretty tolerant and inclusive as cultures and countries goes has done spectacularly well. I do know, however, which kind of world I want to live in. And it is not a world where my autonomy is not respected and I am remade or tinkered with on the basis of values I don't hold. I think most humans feel this way about themselves, even if they aren't willing to extend that to others. The core point of this whole thread has been about the importance of that point, not about gays or sexuality per se. That is the lesson that should be learned. Thanks to Mr. Donahue for highlighting those issues so well. Mike Darwin Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16635