X-Message-Number: 16678 From: "Trygve Bauge" <> References: <> Subject: Trygve's response to Billy Seidel. Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:45:35 +0200 Billy H. Seidel wrote >You should call Fred Chamberlain and ask him to store your DNA with his new company, >Cells 4 Life. 480-367-2982 Any web address for cells 4 life ? Can his company take cell samples, cultivate these, separate the cells by use of a centrifuge, and freeze the cells in such a way that these survive, so that the cells later can be thawed out, and then still be alive and in a condition that is suited for cloning? Most aspects of this procedure are available at large cancer hospitals, and elsewhere where they take, cultivate and freeze cell samples for later continued cultivation. And those clinics that so far have cloned animals will know what condition the cells have to be frozen in in order to still be viable for cloning. Any straight freeze of whole tissue samples might not work. And what about those of us who live elsewhere? Is there any procedure whereby we can go to a local doctor, have a cell sample taken by use of a scalpel (a special knife), have the cell sample put in some petri dish, packed in water ice and sent to Cells 4 life, so to arrive before the cells die? What does it cost to have cells sampled, cultivated, and frozen at Cells 4 life? >You ask a complex question but here is my simple answer. If my cells are stored with >Cells 4 Life now, there would be a good sample and a good cloning could be done. If I >held off until I was underground perhaps the DNA sample would not be a good one. I agree . However many people have died that have not taken cell samples, and many will still die, without ever taking cell samples on time while still alive. And even those few that have taken cell samples pre mortem, might run the risk that these get lost. 10 years ago there was a company named VIVIGEN that accepted cell samples for storage in the United States. Then it stopped taking cell samples, and I for one, have no idea where the cell samples ended up. One hospital in Norway has misplaced (and most likely destroyed) the cells they took of my grandfather. Thus, by all means take cell samples, but do it right, and spread the cells around on several storage providers. And be glad that someone wants to take cell samples post mortem too, when such were not taken before or have been lost. >My personal feeling is that I do not want to waste the resources to clone my body >if I do not remember who I am. It is not the body but the memories that are important to me. >At the end of the restoration cycle I want to know it was me standing there. >I want my original thoughts and not implanted ones. What does it take for it to be you surviving as yourself? The same system of nerve cells holding the same mental content as a continuous uninterupted process? And how large part of the cellsystem and the content could be rebuilt for it to still be you? If the cells are rebuilt to look the same way, and if the mental content are rebuilt to be identical, how much of the cell structures and content has to be left intact from the corpse, and how much can just be built up in the same way as before, for it to still be you? Wouldn't you be happy to be alive even if you had lost all your musical skills, as long as you could train these again? I too want to survive as myself. However, I also want to plan for such eventualities where I can't survive 100 %. Ideally one would like to have the brain cells survive with the mental content present. But wouldn't it still be you if one could repair the brain cells, and then added in a similar mental content to your original, but from external sources? What you think of as yourself, your memories and wills is to a large part shared with other people. Some is human all too human, shared with all human beings. Other parts of your mental content you share with many that lived at the same time and locations as you have. And many personal wills and memories you share with your closest friends, family and associates. And much can be gleaned from your own achievments, papers and computer files. A systematic pre mortem mapping of one's own mental content might come in handy for all cryonisists. especially if amended every few years. Thus with the right preparation or follow up one could actually foresee that your corpse can be fully repaired and restored but with your mental content fully restored from other sources than the corpse itself. >If someone dug up my father and cloned him, he would be just another person in the world >and not someone I know. My Dad would have really liked the idea of cryonics. >Would a clone of my Dad like cryonics??? Possibly if your father had left an overview over his goals, will system, achievments and skills, and an overview over the highlights of his life, and this had been passed on to the clone or the repaired corpse by conventional teaching techniques. >So the answer is, don't dig me up unless my memory can be saved. >Right now I am absolutely positive that ALCOR can save my memory better >than any other cryonics organization out there. >Forget about the politics and the bickering that goes on over Cryonet. >I want the best possible chance to have my memories restored to a new body >and that is why I am signed up with ALCOR. Seems to me that many people die in situations that do not enable ideal cryonic suspensions. Do I understand you correct that if you die while on vacation, in an accident, in a fire, is murdered or otherwise die in such a way that Alcor doesn't get to you on time or while you are in the best of shape, then you dont' want to be frozen? Of those that have responded so far 4 people want to be dug up & frozen (and either cloned or restored with memory content recreated from other sources than the corpse), you are the only one that doesn't want to be dug up. Guess we will let you rot then. Bottom line is: Take cell samples while still young and healthy, have these stored at different storage providers. Have copies of your mental content stored along with your cell samples. Be frozen period. Ideally under ideal circumstances, but otherwise in as good condition as possible. With the right preparations your cells might be repaired based on your rotten corpse and your cell cultures while your will system and memory might be restored by a combination of what that can be gleaned from the corpse and what that is stored elsewhere. It is better to wake up with some mental loss like after a drip/stroke, than to not wake up at all, and even more so when the loss can be compensated for. And, if some of your memory is preserved and some is restored, how can you tell the difference? Sincerely, Trygve Bauge >Billy H. Seidel >928-203-0161 Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16678