X-Message-Number: 1668
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:18:58 EST
From: David S Pizer <>
Subject: CRYONICS

Dear Kevin:

As I told you earlier, I am trying to get off the net as my new
distributing business in Arizona is starting to take off and I find
some of the discussions on the net so gripping they are hard not to
respond to and I just don't have the time anymore.

However, since there have been some responses to my questions posed
earlier, I have decided to follow up on this matter only.  Once this
matter is completely settled, and others have had a chance to reply, I
would like to be removed from your net.  In the meantime, please leave
me on.


I am responding to Saul's and ( a few of) Mike's replys on my asking
Saul questions about his involvement in previous cryonics matters. 
First, since there has been so much mistating of my position, (building
my positon into that of a straw man's) I would like to state for the
record what my beliefs are at this time.

 am not making most of the accusations Mike and others have accused me
of (through alledged inuendo).  Perhaps it is my style of asking that
makes it appear that way.  I apologize if I come off that way.  I do
confirm that I have accused Saul of bad judgement in the past. But, I
have not accused him of bad intentions.  

HOWEVER, in my mind, good intentions coupled with bad judgement can
often have a bad effect, sometimes as devastating as bad intentions. 
Therefore if Saul, or anyone else, wants to have power and control over
Alcor, I feel that it is not inappropriate to ask him questions.  I
agree with Saul that the questions should be asked "nicely."  I
apologize if it seemed I was asking them any other way.

No one will dispute that Saul is a powerful force in Alcor.  My wife
and I, and many of our closest friends, are signed up with Alcor.  It
is possible that I may be in the tank before Saul and he will have
influence over my fate. For that reason I would like to ask some
questions about the past.  I realize that Saul has mentioned his past
at other times, but I have never questioned him, nor has anyone else,
to my knowledge, asked him HARD questions. Mostly people have just
listened and not asked hard questions.

Saul is not an average cryonicist.  Saul often asks Alcor to make great
changes.  For instance Saul has: Asked Alcor to change presidents;
Asked Alcor to remove directors who have questioned him or disagreed
with him; Asked Alcor to allow him to handle important legal matters;
Advised Alcor on what building to buy and what building not to buy. 
And the list goes on.  These are not minor matters Saul is pressing on.
These decisions may be crucial to our fate and the fate of our
patients.

1.	Therefore my first question is:  "When a person attempts to
influence Alcor the way Saul has, and does, is it inappropriate for a
Director, or any member, to ask questions of him?"

Curtis Henderson has told me that he now sees similarities in Alcor and
the final days of CSNY and Cryospan.  For instance, he says that the
matters that are upcoming concerning a relative of a patient of ours
wanting to remove that patient from suspension are similar to the
problems he and Saul had. (There may be more than one case of relatives
who want to remove patients in the near future).  Curtis also says that
the political fighting that is going on now is similar to what was
going on at the end of CSNY and Cryospan.  In addition, if certain
parties (wealthy Alcor members) and their friends (other wealthy Alcor
members) are unhappy with the way Carlos was removed, (and other things
that went on) and they want to start their own cryonics organization
and remove their daughter and mother, will this lead to similarities of
CSNY and Cryospan?  Can we learn anything from CSNY and Cryospan that
will help us if we face the same situaton?

2.	My next question is: "Is there a repeat of other problems that
led to the destruction of CSNY and Cryospan starting now for Alcor?" 
"Is there such hatred towards one-another that our organization will be
torn apart?"  "Can we learn from CSNY and find a way to de-esclate the
political fighting?"


3.	Curtis told me that Pauline Mandel gave Steve Mandel (her son
and their patient) to Nelson because she was upset because he (Curtis)
was living with a 17 year old girl (and planned to marry her), and she
did not like other things that were going on; Mike Dariwn says that it
was a financial matter;  Which is the real answer?

4.	Curtis said he did not "give" the patients to Nelson, that
Nelson just came in a truck and took them.  What kind of security was
in effect at the time?  

5.	Curtis said that he and Saul did not own the tanks, that the
relatives owned them.  Therefore the relatives could come take the tanks
(which the patients, unfortunately, happened to be in).  Then Curtis
told me that "We owed a lot of money to Ed Hope (The manufacturer in
Arizona) for the tanks."  If the tanks belonged to the relatives, how
could Cryospan owe money for them?  

Curtis also said their attorney, Mr. Vingento advised them (Cryospan)
to own the tanks, but he and Saul rejected this advice.  Who did own
the tanks?  "If this is true, why did Saul and Curtis reject the
advice?"

6.	Curtis said that he never thought Cryospan would make money, "It
was there to protect us."  "We came out of this with no criminal
charges."  "We were a service organizaiton, different from Alcor, we had
no real obligation to the patients."   

I don't understand these comments.  Would Saul or Curtis care to
explain them.

7.	Curtis said, "John Bull was the one covering up, not us.  And,
Ettinger (Bob) also assured us that Mandel was OK."  What is meant by
this?

8.	Curtis said he gave all the CSNY and Cryospan records to Alcor. 
Mike Perry and I looked for them one whole evening.  We could not find
them.  Does anyone know where they are?  How can I see them?

9.	Curtis said John Bull wanted to get involved with Cryospan and
Saul refused him.  Then Curtis said, "We got out of this with our whole
hides."  What does this mean?

Curtis said John Bull, and others, were fighting with Saul and Curtis. 
John wanted to build a cryonics building.  Saul opposed John.  My
question is, "Is there a similarity to the Phoenix building purchase
failure and this one?"  "Can we learn anything from all this to avoid
another failure?"

John wanted to start a new organization and call it "Cryocrypt" (A
stupid name, I'll admit).  Curtis mentioned that John did not like the
way Saul and Curtis allowed the relatives to have control of the tanks
and patients, and he (John) argued with them about this.  My question
is, "CSNY and Cryospan defenders have alledged that they did not have
the ability to change the way they gave control to the relatives.  Did
John try to get them to change the  policy?  Why  did Saul and Curtis
not agree with John?

Did John want to buy stock in Cryospan?  
Did Saul refuse to sell him some?  
Did Saul buy stock in John's company?  
Is there any similarity in all this confusing inter-cryonics-companies
dealings and dealings going on in Cryovita-Alcor now?

Why did Fred Horn sell the land that was going to be  used for a
cryonics building? Was he angry also?  Is there a similarity to this
and the way the Comos' now feel? 


10.  I have read the book that Curtis sent me that contained 2 years
copies of the CSNY monthly magazine.  In those magazines, Saul was the
editor.  The magazines portray a larger organiztion with scientific
panels and conferences.  However Curtis told me that it was basically
just 3 persons involved, him, Saul and a lady that would not like her
real name known.  My question is. "Just how big was the organization?"

11.	Curtis said "When you know you are going to lose the battle -
you retreat.  Not lose like Nelson did. We could have gotten around the
fines (The threat of $1,000 a day fines that has been claimed to have
caused them to have to close down).  No one would pay us! There was a
lack of interest.  The state sent a letter with a $1,000 a day fine. 
The state wanted us to bury the bodies.  We could have continued until
the state seized the bodies."  My question is, "Was it just a matter of
the state fines or was CSNY "done for" due to poor planning, poor
financial conditions and political fighting?

These are just some of the questions I have.  I do not ask them in a
mean-spirited way.  I have no idea what the answers are.  However, I
feel these are important issues and I want to try to see if there are
similarities in these past events and what Alcor will soon be facing. 
I do not feel it is inapppropriate to ask these questions.  I hope
someone will answer them specifically and not use this as another means
to make personal attacks on me.  However, if members do not want Board
members to ask questions like this in the future when powerful people
try to influence Alcor, they should state so now.  If there is any
rudeness perceived in these questions I do not mean them to contain any.

Dave Pizer

PS.  I will answer Mike Darwin's charges in a later response.

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