X-Message-Number: 16784 From: "Trygve Bauge" <> References: <> Subject: Trygve's respons to Chris Benatar Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 21:10:54 +0200 Hi, Chris, thanks for writing me. I see in Elizabeths letters much that I recognize from other post mortem suspension requests and from other situations where people have died. It is fairly common to blame hospitals, or think what the situation could have been if one had acted otherwise: E.g. my own grandfather was mentally and physically in good health, except for his hearth. A week before he died, the doctor told him: If you had been younger we would have given you a hearth transplant. (e.g. based on your health it would be justified to give you a new hearth, but our regulations do not let us give new hearths to those at your age.) To which my grandfather responded: Oh, if I had just been younger, Well he died from hearth attack a week later, and we froze him, a hearth transplant would have been less expensive, but was not permitted. -- Cancers seem to grow faster when there is a lot of natrium chloride in the tissue fluids. Still hospitals give saline solutions intravenously to cancer patients, just to have these die shortly therafter. A friend lost a friend that way 2 years ago. -- Maybe Elizabeth's father would have survived longer if someone had told him and her about the cancer therapy developed by Max Gerson M.D. http://www.gerson.org Maybe then the family, hospital and doctor would have known how to and done more to keep him alive. But that is all water under the bridge by now. Still people interested in cryonics will continue to get into the situation that Elizabeth is in. People will continue to lose relatives that have not signed up for suspension. They will be distraught, and emotional, etc. etc. Still she has been consistent and not wavered at all in her decission to maintain her father in all the e-mails and conversations I have seen so far. Just like I was consistent when I froze my grandfather, and Svein Hindal was consistent when he had his mother frozen, Yes it is traumatic to be in a post mortem sign up situation. But, we shouldn't systematically deny such, just because people have lost their loved one's and therefore are in a highly emotional situation. It is quite possible to still make rational and consistent decissions. And I haven't seen anything in Elizabeth's behaviour so far that indicates any irrationality. Thus I pass your and Elizabeth's letter on to the cryonet, so people there can judge for themselves. Sincerely, Trygve Bauge Ps. And I think we would all be better off, by finding some better way of assisting post mortem cases than the assistance or lack of such that Elizabeth has receieved. After all, many people, including people on the Cryonet, will likely end up in similar situations themselves! ----- Original Message ----- From: <> To: "elizabeth kostadinova." <> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:56 AM Subject: Re: REGARDING OPIONS Hi Elizabeth, Sorry for not writing to you for a while, I have been very busy at work and besides I needed time to think. I have decieded that I am very happy to help you in getting yourself, your mom and your sister signed up with one of the existing providers or failing that to work with you in setting up a cryonics facility in Australia for yourself, your mom and your sister. I do NOT however feel that I can participate in any way with the freezing of your father or setting up any Australian cryonics facility for the purpose of freezing your father. The reason for this is that I feel that your mental state is too emotionally charged. By your own admission, you are unable to think rationally at the moment due to your emotional state. I feel sure that you have a high probaility of later regreting your actions. I plead with you to go to grief counselling. You can find many services in your area in the yellow pages telephone directory under counselling. If you have any religious beliefs, you could also visit your church and ask for counselling. I have done a search on the Internet version of the yellow pages ( http://www.yellowpages.com.au ) and found 66 matches for " grief counselling " in Melbourne. I include a few of the results here but please check for yourself. 24 Hour National Counselling Tel: (02) 9214 7070 Mobile (more expensive): 0416 286 466 After hours: (02) 9214 7070 Email: Lifeline 24 Hour Counselling Tel: 13 1114 Seasons Loss & Grief Program Tel: (03) 9287 5505 Australian Institute Of Professional Counsellors Tel: 1800 622 489 Make sure that you are aware of any charges that these organisations may have including some premium rate phone calls (eg. $2.50 per minute phone calls) before you commit yourself. Do not be put off too much by any costs of councelling, it is very much cheaper than your choice of cryonics. Please write to me and let me know how councelling went. As mentioned before, if you want any assistance with signing up yourself, your mother and your sister, please let me know and I will do everything I can to help. If you want to try setting up a local cryonics facility for any currently living person then again I would be happy to help. With best wishes Chris Benatar Email: PS. Please go to grief councelling - you may not feel it is necessary, but as an outsider I can see it will be very beneficial to you. "elizabeth kostadinova." <> on 23/06/2001 05:59:54 PM To: <> cc: Subject: REGARDING OPIONS Dear Chris, L forgot to ask you in my last email, about whetherr victoria allow to bring back a person that has suposidy passed,for building a buiriel or monumnent, i am trying to bring my dad back home samome way whether to preserve,orther other, HOW CAN I GET MY DAD BROUGHT BACK ONTO OUR PROPERTY LEGALLY, WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST AVENUES TO FOLLOW AND TRY,.AS BECAUSE OF MY EMOTIONAL STAE UNABLE TO THINK RATIOALLY, PLEASE HELP SOME HOW ,THEY DONT ALLOW YOU BRING THE BODY FOR STORAGE OR SUSPENSION, MAYBE LEGALLY FAMILY CAN MADE POINT TO HAVE BODY BROUGHT, BACK, AS I TAKEING NOEW HIS HEART STOPPED WORKINGSIT HAPPEWNED NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO CHANGE, ORE SUGGEST NOW DEAL WITH WHAT CAN BE DONE, AS WHEN WAS IN HOSTIPAL THE DOCTOR REFUSED ANY CPR,USE OTHER MEDICATIONS TO HELP SURVUIVEAL, THEY LET HIS ILLNESS PROCESS, STATEING HIS CANCER TO SPEAD THAT HE HAD A FEW WEEK,STIO LIVE OH DAD WHY DIDNT YOU HOLD ON, AND TRY OTHER THING,S BELIEIVE ME SURVIVAL WAS POSSIBLE SHOULD OF COPED BETTERWITH DDISEASE AND NOT LET IT GET TO YOU. DOCTORS ARE NOT,GOD,MEDICAL ASUMETION ONLY, AND HISTORY,DONT BELEIVE YOU WILL DIE AND YOU WONT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY TELL YOU,WHEN YOU BELEIVE NEVER CURE WILL HAPPEN,, REGARDS, ELIZABETH KOSTADINOVA,. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16784