X-Message-Number: 16784
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
References: <>
Subject: Trygve's respons to Chris Benatar
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 21:10:54 +0200

Hi, Chris,
thanks for writing me.
I see in Elizabeths letters much that I recognize from other post mortem
suspension requests and from other situations where people have died.

It is fairly common to blame hospitals, or think what the situation could
have been if one had acted otherwise:
E.g. my own grandfather was mentally and physically in good health, except
for his hearth.
A week before he died, the doctor told him:
If you had been younger we would have given you a hearth transplant.
(e.g. based on your health it would be justified to give you a new hearth,
but our regulations do not let us give new hearths to those at your age.)
To which my grandfather responded: Oh, if I had just been younger,
Well he died from hearth attack a week later, and we froze him, a hearth
transplant would have been less expensive, but was not permitted.
--
Cancers seem to grow faster when there is a lot of natrium chloride in the
tissue fluids.
Still hospitals give saline solutions intravenously to cancer patients, just
to have these die shortly therafter.  A friend lost a friend that way 2
years ago.
--
Maybe Elizabeth's father would have survived longer if someone had told him
and her about the cancer therapy developed by Max Gerson M.D.
http://www.gerson.org
Maybe then the family, hospital and doctor would have known how to and done
more to keep him alive.

But that is all water under the bridge by now.

Still people interested in cryonics will continue to get into the situation
that Elizabeth is in.
People will continue to lose relatives that have not signed up for
suspension.
They will be distraught, and emotional, etc. etc.
Still she has been consistent and not wavered at all in her decission to
maintain her father
in all the e-mails and conversations I have seen so far.

Just like I was consistent when I froze my grandfather,
and Svein Hindal was consistent when he had his mother frozen,
Yes it is traumatic to be in a post mortem sign up situation.
But, we shouldn't systematically deny such, just because people have lost
their loved one's
and therefore are in a highly emotional situation.

It is quite possible to still make rational and consistent decissions.

And I haven't seen anything in Elizabeth's behaviour so far that indicates
any irrationality.

Thus I pass your and Elizabeth's letter on to the cryonet, so people there
can judge for themselves.

Sincerely,

Trygve Bauge

Ps. And I think we would all be better off, by finding some better way of
assisting post mortem cases than the assistance or lack of such that
Elizabeth has receieved.
After all, many people, including people on the Cryonet, will likely end up
in similar situations themselves!



----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: "elizabeth kostadinova." <>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: REGARDING OPIONS




Hi Elizabeth,

Sorry for not writing to you for a while, I have been very busy at work and
besides I needed time to think.

I have decieded that I am very happy to help you in getting yourself, your
mom and your sister signed up with one of the existing providers or failing
that to work with you in setting up a cryonics facility in Australia for
yourself, your mom and your sister.

I do NOT however feel that I can participate in any way with the freezing
of your father or setting up any Australian cryonics facility for the
purpose of freezing your father.

The reason for this is that I feel that your mental state is too
emotionally charged. By your own admission, you are unable to think
rationally at the moment due to your emotional state. I feel sure that you
have a high probaility of later regreting your actions.

I plead with you to go to grief counselling. You can find many services in
your area in the yellow pages telephone directory under counselling. If you
have any religious beliefs, you could also visit your church and ask for
counselling. I have done a search on the Internet version of the yellow
pages ( http://www.yellowpages.com.au ) and found 66 matches for " grief
counselling " in Melbourne. I include a few of the results here but please
check for yourself.

24 Hour National Counselling             Tel: (02) 9214 7070  Mobile (more
expensive): 0416 286 466
                              After hours: (02) 9214 7070
                              Email: 

Lifeline 24 Hour Counselling             Tel: 13 1114

Seasons Loss & Grief Program             Tel: (03) 9287 5505

Australian Institute Of Professional Counsellors   Tel: 1800 622 489

Make sure that you are aware of any charges that these organisations may
have including some premium rate phone calls (eg. $2.50 per minute phone
calls) before you commit yourself. Do not be put off too much by any costs
of councelling, it is very much cheaper than your choice of cryonics.
Please write to me and let me know how councelling went.

As mentioned before, if you want any assistance with signing up yourself,
your mother and your sister, please let me know and I will do everything I
can to help. If you want to try setting up a local cryonics facility for
any currently living person then again I would be happy to help.

With best wishes

Chris Benatar

Email: 

PS. Please go to grief councelling - you may not feel it is necessary, but
as an outsider I can see it will be very beneficial to you.




"elizabeth kostadinova." <> on 23/06/2001 05:59:54 PM

To:   <>
cc:
Subject:  REGARDING OPIONS



Dear Chris,
L forgot to ask you in my last  email,
about whetherr victoria allow to bring back a  person that has suposidy
passed,for building a buiriel or  monumnent,
i am trying to bring my dad back home samome way  whether to
preserve,orther other,
HOW CAN I GET MY DAD BROUGHT BACK ONTO OUR  PROPERTY LEGALLY,
WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST AVENUES TO FOLLOW AND  TRY,.AS BECAUSE OF MY
EMOTIONAL STAE UNABLE TO THINK RATIOALLY,
PLEASE HELP SOME HOW ,THEY DONT ALLOW YOU BRING THE  BODY FOR STORAGE OR
SUSPENSION, MAYBE LEGALLY FAMILY CAN MADE POINT TO HAVE BODY  BROUGHT,
BACK,
AS I TAKEING NOEW HIS HEART STOPPED WORKINGSIT  HAPPEWNED NOTHING YOU CAN
DO TO CHANGE, ORE SUGGEST NOW DEAL WITH WHAT CAN BE  DONE,
AS WHEN WAS IN HOSTIPAL THE DOCTOR REFUSED ANY  CPR,USE OTHER MEDICATIONS
TO HELP SURVUIVEAL, THEY LET HIS ILLNESS PROCESS,  STATEING HIS CANCER TO
SPEAD THAT HE HAD A FEW WEEK,STIO LIVE OH DAD WHY DIDNT  YOU HOLD ON, AND
TRY OTHER THING,S BELIEIVE ME SURVIVAL WAS POSSIBLE SHOULD OF  COPED
BETTERWITH DDISEASE AND NOT LET IT GET TO YOU. DOCTORS ARE NOT,GOD,MEDICAL
ASUMETION ONLY, AND HISTORY,DONT BELEIVE YOU WILL DIE AND YOU WONT, NO
MATTER  WHAT THEY TELL YOU,WHEN YOU BELEIVE NEVER CURE WILL HAPPEN,,
REGARDS, ELIZABETH KOSTADINOVA,.


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