X-Message-Number: 16790 From: "Trygve Bauge" <> Subject: Fw: Assumptions re Australian case Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:54:31 +0200 I tried to forward this to the Cryonet 3 days ago, but got a message that it was not posted, Thus let me try again, since I think you all ought to see it. Sincerely, Trygve Bauge Ps. In the following I, Trygve, wrote what that is marked with >.... Simon commented on this, and Chris Benatar then defended me and Elizabeth by adding all the comments that start with ***...... ----- Original Message ----- From: <> Chris To: <> Simon Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:36 AM Subject: Assumptions see *** comments (Chris Benatar's comments to Simon) Message #16725 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:51:35 +1000 From: Simon Carter <> Subject: Re: Trygve's response to Simon (#16703) Hi Trygve, > If you know any other Melbourne cryonisists , please let me know > of where to contact these. I understand you (and 'Elizabeth') have already contacted some of the cryonicists in Australia, in particular Melbourne, and that they have chosen not to respond or suggested that this is not a case with which they wish to be involved. *** I believe you might be refering to me amongst others. I have been discussing the matter with Elizabeth through email. Neither of the above statements are 100% true. I have been responding and I have taken certain intrest in the case. Yes, I know all the cryonicists in Melbourne but am unable to provide you with their contact details without their express permission. You should know that sveral of us have recently discussed the case via email with none of those participating wishing to be involved. In summary, our consensus was that this is a hopeless case, likely to lead to grief for all involved and continuing sorrow. The possibility that 'Elizabeth' has ulterior motives is also a concern. *** I don't really care if there is "no possibility of revival" since I am not in a position to judge future technology and existing technology cannot tell me definitivly the level of information loss, the rate of loss or the level of redundancy. Simply put, it is all speculation - ALL OF IT (yes the dreaded caps) even best case suspensions. Discrediting Elizabeth is discrediting yourself. *** If I were to be frozen in such a state and in such a manner, I would rate my chances of revival with even 10% of my memories and personality intact as near but not quite zero. In other words the probability of preferred revival is vanishingly low to the point some would consider it zero but in a mathematical sense there is still an incredibly small chance. *** Never the less, I would still choose for my poor state remains to be frozen. The reason for this is that I have nothing to lose. If I can never be revived then I have lost nothing since I was dead anyway and therefore unable to benefit from the money anyway. My instruction at death will include a minimum amount (percentage) of intact memories demonstrated as retrievable before reanimation. This will apply regardless of how good a suspension I get. > Elizabeth called me early on and spoke to me for about one hour > on the phone. > > She has sent me an e-mail, address and phone number. Thanks for the info. Are you not concerned? You hint of having suspicions. *** How do you relate your comment to the sentences above it? > (the address seems a little fishy, and some of her letters > look like she has copied in paragraphs from others, maybe > based on e-mails from other cryonisists.) Well, I don't buy cutting and pasting as a reason for improvement in 'her' written English skills. Its just too good and too sudden. I cite the email at the end of your post: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16683 *** So do you have a degree in language skills of foreign nationals? Perhaps you have some personal experience to call upon? From my perspective I see someone that she is struggling the best she can with a second language. My experience comes from my Russian wife who also had great difficulty with English at first. I wrote and recieved hundreds of letters/emails from her and they were not disimilar in the sort of mistakes made and the improvement and then loss in quality. This change was due to effort put in, tiredness, help from others and the difficulty of the language used. ... and 'she' even found out how to turn off the caps lock in that one! *** Sarcasm, really not very mature! Have you ever tried typing on a Cyrillic keyboard? It is not uncommon not to look at the screen as you are typing using an unfamiliar keyboard. Once you look at the screen and see the wrong case, you are not going to be keen to retype the whole lot. Not everyone knows how to change case on existing text. ... and at the end of this one: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16687 (its back to form with the capitalisation but the English is markedly better than the earlier efforts) *** See 2 comments above > Otherwise she appeared more calm, sincere and straightforward > than many other distressed people pursuing post mortem > suspensions that I have spoken to over the years. The calm seems in contrast to many of 'her' emails. *** It would appear that she is understandably traumatised by the loss of her father and is experiencing mood swings. > Many seems to lie about when their relative died and what > he or she died from. > Elizabeth volunteered herself, in our very first conversation > that her father had died several months prior. Now I'm getting confused! Trygve, are you are accusing 'Elizabeth' of "lying"? That's my job, mate! *** Try reading what Trygve wrote again. Perhaps you missed it or maybe the broken English is confusing you so here is a "translation into aussie": It is Trygve's experience that in OTHER cases, people lie about the length of time that the loved one has been dead and lie about the cause of death. Elizabeth on the other hand volunteered the truth (despite it being a negative truth) in the very first conversation Trygve had with her. The truth that she revealed to Trygve on that FIRST conversation was that her father had DIED SEVERAL MONTHS AGO. So it seems that Trygve is actually saying the opposite ie that she showed considerable honesty by offering the information upfront unlike oher cases. I've been perusing the archives tho' and think I know what you are saying. 'Elizabeth', despite numerous requests from several people was quite unwilling to provide detail about 'her' supposed father's death. I recall a date in early June being mentioned at first (but don't have the time to search right now - is this correct?). However in http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16498 you state that her supposed father died in March: "Seems like her 58 year old father died of cancer on March the 19th. And has been burried since then." *** I challenge you to find your claimed reference where Elizabeth stated her father died in June!!!! Elizabeth had no problem answering my politly phrased questions including details about her fathers death. So just what is going on here? Just when did Daddy supposedly die? *** As stated by Trygve, he died of cancer on the 19th of March 2001. > She has repeatedly asked me to give her an account number that she > can pay in money on, something I have not yet done. I have noticed 'her' anxiety, nay insistence, on getting your account number and advise caution (I particularly refer to the two emails above). If 'Elizabeth' is a journalist what happens then? "GOTCHA!: Money grubbing body freezers try cheating grieving daughter out of life savings?" Please Trygve, you may be safe in Norway but there are a bunch or cryonicists in Australia who do not need that sort of attention. Your desire to set up a cryonics facility may be well intended but the history of cryonics indicates that such facilities need to be supported by a decent sized and committed organisation to have any long term chance of survival. *** If I were in Elizabeths position I may also wish to get the funds transferred as soon as possible so as to expedite matters. She is acting in a manner consistent with her desperate desire to try save her father. Trial by media is not something I am going to spend my whole life running from - of course you can if you want to. I'll fight back. > All my services so far has been free of charge and done from > good will. I'm not doubting that. I am saying that you could end up looking foolish and damaging the cause of cryonics in Australia and elsewhere. *** See my comment about fear of media below Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on your longer term goal of helping others to set up a European facility rather than spend effort on this case? *** If he is looking from his own personal perspective then he would probably be better off without this case but I think he is trying to do what HE feels is RIGHT, not what you or me or the media think. If he feels it is the right thing to do then he would be putting himself first if he were to avoid this case and that does not appear to be consistent with his character. I hope someone cares that much if I should miss the (cryonics) boat. > So far I have posted her name and e-mail address to the cryonet. > I could post her phone number and regular address, > if she has no objection to this. I think several of us would be interested. Strangely 'Elizabeth' has not responded to either myself or Veronica Sullivan's request for further information regarding herself: HERE I AM 'ELIZaBEHT': RIHGHT HEREON THE GROUNDIN AUSTRLIA. I NOW (FACE TO FACE) ALL THE MELBRNE CRYONIICISTS AND MST OFTHE REST IN THE COUNNTRY. WHERE ARE YOU, WHO ARE YOU, AND WHEENDIDd YOUR FATHER DIE? I ASSUnME TRYGVE HAS FORWARDED MY EmAIL OF YESTERDAY HTTP://WWW.CRYONET.ORG/ARCHIVE/16699 AND I'D LIKE A RESPONSE. *** Would you reply to anyone who deliberatly wrote such a sarcastic and pathetic troll? Your actions in writing this are nothing less than that of an 8 year old spoilt brat. You deliberatly go out of your way to make fun of her english skills, her typing skills, her spelling skills and her use of case. You then ask a barrage of questions and follow it up with what sounds like a demand for a reply. Not a single word of consideration or compassion - is that a reflection of your personality? *** It is to your own detriment that you write such a letter - others will judge you on such actions. I already did. *** As for giving you Elizabeths regular address or phone number, I personally won't gve it to you since I don't believe that would be in her intrest to recieve further abuse from you. > It is my impression that she had contacted Alcor and had been turned > down by these before I heard of her. It is Alcor's right to choose whether to take non-members. You are surely aware of the risk of doing so and respect their right? *** It is also a risky road to take when it seems plain that it was not refused because of the state of the body. Alcor will store decomposing bodies of signed up members and if my understanding is correct has already done so. If Alcor is going to start making arbitrary judgements on the matter, it could end up with people being denied based on other issues such as nationality. What about if a convicted murderer requests to be frozen after his execution, will Alcor allow membership and then freeze him/her? What level of criminal history will Alcor draw the line at? What other things might Alcor find ethically repugnant? What about political refugees or people like Salmon Rushdie? Would they turn him away because the newspapers would have a field day. What if someone accuses you of something of which you are 100% innocent, rape, murder, pedophilia or necrophilia etc trial by media and kiss away your chance of suspension. Fear of publicity should NOT be the determining factor! > I have not yet verified her wherabouts or if she can afford > what she claims, An established cryonics provider would of > course do that as its first step. I'm not sure of your point here Trygve. I think you badly need to verify her wherabouts, at the very least. *** It would appear that he has limited resources and would appreciate any help he can get from the so called "cryonics community". ... ... > I have been in touch with the Australian consulate in Norway, > so that they can assist Elizabeth, once I am ready to organize > a facility, I will ask the Norwegian consulate in Australia > and a local bank to assist in veryfing what it is of > value to verify, before signing any contract. Mate, maaate, take it from me: I've never found the buggers to be of any use. Help from an Australian embassy or consulate? Sheeesh!! *** Judging by your email to Elizabeth, I am hardly surprised that you haven't had too much sucess, perhaps a course in communication skills is in order. I found them to be very helpful and friendly when approached the right way. Look, thanks again for being upfront regarding what 'Elizabeth' has told you but I think I've made my opinion quite clear. While I'll read your reply please don't expect me to engage in a daily exchange for long. *** Your response or otherwise is entirely up to you. *** My involvment with Elizabeth has been positive to try to help her. I have done the right things for her and will continue to try to help her. I do not support the suspension of her father but only because I believe that she is emotionally too unstable to rationalise her decisions (based on information you have not seen). I will not stand in her or Trygve's way - I simply will not assist is freezing her father. I will still be activly involved in helping her to arrange suspensions for her self, her mother and her sister if she chooses including setting up a suspension facility here or overseas if the other organisations refuse them membership. I do not believe she is lying - I know more about her than you do because I have written POLITELY to her and recieved several responses and done a bit of simple research. This leads me to believe that she is not a journalist. Your actions so far ave been very VERY unAustralian. Long life, *** provided you fit Simons and the medias criteria Simon Chris Benatar Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16790