X-Message-Number: 16824 From: "Trygve Bauge" <> References: <> <00b501c0ff8c$6718d980$> Subject: Trygve's response to Thomas Nord, Re: Bauge and Oz, and burrial in permafrost at Svalbard. Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:04:00 +0200 "Thomas Nord" <> wrote: >Amigo, >If this was a mail to me, send it like that first, I aint got it. Trygve's response: Thomas, you were the one that let me know about Elizabeth Kostadinova. When you first let me know about the Australian case, you forwarded to me a letter Elizabeth had written to . I thought was you, and mailed a few letters to that address that was intended for you. So who is ? It seems you would not have got my letters if I hadn't also posted these to Cryonet. You say you have not received my letter.... >Only illegal spam from a lunatic case using remailers, who has been fighting Cryonics in >sci.cryonics and other groups several times in different names for years, but had to back >off every time as we all have seen. I just filter spam off and pity the poor case. Who are you refering to? It was included in the same paragraph so that people could misunderstand and think you were refering to me. So for the record: I am not sure what you mean with remailers, but I have not been fighting cryonics in sci.cryonics or other groups. I have not posted to sci.cryonics for many years now. And I have always been posting under my own name. So who is this fellow you are speaking about and what is his name and e-mail address? I hope you are not filtering my letters as spam. As a matter of fact I know you are not, because once I discovered your correct e-mail address we have exchanged quite a few valuable letters. But I thought I would let others know too, that might have misunderstood your letter. Furthermore I think my posts have been on the topic of cryonics and within the parameters that cryonet is all about. >And I had no reply from the lass in Oz in spite of several mails, perhaps because I'm a >good checker if folks are for real. I have a close friend in Oz, and know others there, mail >me more and I'll take some burden off you. The text doesnt seem to be from a 29-year >old woman, or she may be in panic. Please see the letter titled "Assumptions (re the Australian case)", that was written by Chris Benatar and that I forwarded to the Cryonet and the cryonics Europe list. Chris apparently got upset because I forwarded that letter. For some reason he doesn't like to post to cryonet. But it should answer many of your questions, and many questions by others that have questioned whether Elizabeth is for real. If you want to, I could ask Elizabeth if she wants to meet with your friends in Melbourne, that might give us an even better way of verifying whether or not she knows what she is doing and can afford to do what she says she wants done. >One lunycase I know for shure has that age and know my ties in Oz. I always check folks >up a bit before getting to much work looking like timewasting, good for you perhaps and >us this time to set things in motion more. But who like to get fooled. When she calls, call >back. Oz has the white papers on Internet. One of our friends there some of us know, >works with legal matters a bit and is on track. Chris Benatar (in Australia) looked in the phone book and found that Elizabeth is listed under the same name, address and phone number that she has given me. >> Thomas would you consider owning a place in a bigfoot dewar in Norway, >> or 1/4 of such a dewar? Cost would be 1/4 of the dewar and its freight to Norway, >> and 1/4 of its annual upkeep, room rental and liquid nitrogen consumption. >> If you want to use the spot, then there would of course be the added cost of freezing >>someone elsewhere in whatever way you afford, and freigth to Norway and cost of >>placing the body in the dewar, and the need to set up some means of longrun funding >>and some provisions for what to do if that funding runs out. And some emergency slush >>fund and mutual coinsurance policy with other facilities would probably be useful. > >I consider anything but that is a private matter, what is written here some mentalcases >reads also and refers to the archive later. I see your point, but still the offer is a public one to everyone, not just to you, and to reach more people than those one already knows one has to post it publicly. You can of course respond in private, and if you are concerned you might lable your letter confidential. I usually honor such requests, unless I see some serious reasons for not doing so. > > >And again as I have pointed out for years, check the laws and legislation first of all if we >>can use it, bend or change it, as checked in Russia and France etc. I have spent several weeks talking to at least 10 Norwegian government offices, and I am getting law texts in the mail every day here. Seems like we can set up a bio bank (that is a cryo bank) here in Norway, and at least store whole bodies as long as these are donated to some foreign organization like ACS or C.I. etc.. Thus my suggestion that Elizabeth join ACS and I then organize a storage provider that ACS can use here in Norway. However, before I actually do so, I will in writing explicitly ask the government offices I have contacted if they have any legal objections. > >Swedish and Norwegian laws are very similar as far as I know, EU and many others > >the same. Liberal US is another case until you are found. In the US too it is best to be up front with the local governments and shop around until you find a government that will welcome you into its business or industrial parks. Rather than to insist on your rights in a battle with a government that wants to take away these. > >Here (in Sweden) it must be an approved gravesite regulated in law what that means, > >not a shed somewhere. The right kind of container may be kept elsewhere, >> and it seems to be legal to have such a shed within a graveyard. >>US-style do not work here at all. > I am not sure what you mean with US-style. But if you are refering to my facility in Colorado. That is legal, and not a zoning violation. It was zoned mountain residental which permits churches (possibly even graveyards) and most any business activity out of folks own garages, much like any industrial park. Mountain homes are typically more like small farmsteads with their own barns and workshops etc. And as stated earlier, the intention was not to use sheds, but to build a partially terrain integrated state of the art concrete cryonic storage lab.We started on the latter and it is almost finished, and just standing there until I can find a way to fight off the protectionisme that presently prevails in the United States. As to Norway: It is clear that one can set up bio banks in Norwegian research parks and in Norwegian business parks, and that this would not constitute a zoning violation. There are lots of biotechnology companies in the same parks, several already storing cell samples etc. on liquid nitrogen and in electrical freezers. One of the other companies even let us store cell samples for a client of mine a few years ago, both electrically and in liquid nitrogen. >> Norway has provisions for bio banks. >> We also have provisions for donating organs, >> and for donating whole bodies for research, > >We have exactly the same here, I guess Norges love(?) and our lawbook is very much >the same being so near to one another side by side like in a dewar. >Research is for a shorter time at least here, not many years as we need, check the law >and all the line down IRL. I have checked with the governement here, the medicalboard, >the county and some communes. I have not found any time limit on storage here in Norway. As a matter of fact the government itself is pushing the idea of establishing bio banks e.g. for cell and blood storage etc. I am only suggesting that they also can use such for storage of murder victims, bodies donated to patological research and other research, including a general sample of the population for long run research, (that then easily could be used to cover the cryonically inclined too.) >> However, it is legel to ship corpses in and out, > >As anywhere with CI and some hazzles sometimes. >> We also have the option of perma frost burials at Svalbard and near many >>of our glaciers. >If it lasts with the climatechange. Yes that is a point. Besides perma frost is not cold enough to stop all further biological breakdown, thus I am not pursuing it. It might however be an inexpensive way of preserving DNA fragments. E.g. in case head or brain or other cell samples that are stored in liquid nitrogen are lost, it could be useful to have stored the rest of the body in permafrost e.g. in a terrain integrated building that is built as a permafrost tunnel in an are with deep natural permafrost. Then one could easily if necessary sample the rest of the body for a new set of DNA fragments, without having to dig up any corpse, it would just be stored in a chest on a shelf in a cold tunnel that naturally holds freezing temperatures year round. I have called to find out the regulations for burial at Svalbard. It seems like they don't have a present burial ground there because it is too hard to dig in the permafrost. If someone built a private terrain integrated burrial chamber, using heavy machinery to excavate, then the bodies could easily be stored without having to dig a separate whole in the permafrost for each burrial. Svalbard has the added advantage that it is an international area, that anyone of any nationality has access to. From Norway one can still travel there without a passport, but you have to show a passport or prove your nationality to get back to Norway. The international treaty of Svalbard from 1925, gives the residents of all the signing countries the right to come to and use Svalbard. Thus the country has seen lots of Russian, Swedish and Norwegian mining towns over the years. They used to bury people in the permafrost there in the old days. But I guess grave diggers are lazier these days. >> >As some may remember, I have asked around in EU and elsewhere, due to my own >>>relocation too, if its not going to be US. >> >Norway once belonged to Sweden next door, just as cold in the winter where the old >>> ones don't like to be. > >> Speak for yourself, I think it gets to warm when it is about 80 degrees fahrenheit. > >+80F=27C is just fine as now, we dont wish much more, but elderly dislike slipping on >ice and some minus 10-20C as is awful, thats the point. Never the less many elderly still live in Scandinavia, and get back here once they get to sick to take care of themselves in Spain etc. We might see Norwegian governments building nursing homes in Spain and on Malta, both have been seriously proposed by local governments themselves and some care facilities are already rented and built. However bodies are still usually shipped home here for burial. And of course they could be shipped home to colder climate for cryonic storage too. >PS is there anyone who can do cryonics perfusion in a body buried for so long and warm >like in Australia? It would just be a straight freeze if anything ever comes of the Australian case. >Perhaps thats another problem when that time comes and if, just hope its not a scam from >a child or similar. Forgive me if you read this and are for real, but we have to watch out >for the bad ones. If you know someone you trust in Melbourne, please let me know, maybe we can set it up so this person can meet with Elizabeth, and verify all we have to verify re her health, rationality, consistancy, economic situation and financing etc. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16824