X-Message-Number: 16993
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:50:39 -0700
From: Olaf Henny <>
Subject: Lee Corbin, Definition of Concsiousness
References: <>

In Message #16983 Lee Corbin <> wrote
Re: Constructive Thinking Without Consciousness?

>Olaf [Henny] writes:

[In keeping with your advice on how to handle errors] ;)

>>I believe, that the fly or mosquito, which escapes my
>>slapping hand has fear, recognizes the approaching danger
>>and consciously tries to get away, therefore is conscious.
>
>very easy to write that appear to flee from your cursor.
>In the limit, a bimetallic strip could move away from your
>hand to.

Far from it.  It is part of the basic functionality of your
program, to move away as the cursor approaches, just as is part
of the functionality of my doorbell to ring, when somebody pushes
the button.

With the fly the process is entirely more complex:
-   Sensory perception (through vision, smell, touch)
-   Evaluation
-   Recognition of danger
-   Decision to take action
-   Taking action (outta here!)

While you may argue, that the first two items are present in
your programme in form of "receiving signal" and "data
processing", the last three are unique to self-preservation.

>Our investigations of the brain reveal a huge number of
>extremely intricate mechanisms that probably correlate
>with consciousness and the emotions.  The elaborateness
>of these mechanisms in lower animals is much less.  That's
>one reason that it isn't sensible to believe insects are
>consciousness.

You appear to concede at least a degree of consciousness to the
duck, but none to the fly.  So where does consciousness begin?
How do you define its rudimentary function, if not as taking
action for self-preservation?
>
>Likewise there is not much point to placing the enormous
>resources in a single ant to make it have fear.  Fear in
>animals is extremely useful for learning, hence for survival,
>and therefore for reproduction.

I have used the example of an ant in a similar reasoning for
consciousness a year or two ago.  The response, I received (by
yourself?), made it clear, that this was a bad example due to the
impact on/from the hive.

Best,
Olaf

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