X-Message-Number: 17556
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:57:14 -0700
From: Mike Perry <>
Subject: Re: "Calling all Physicists"

Dave Pizer, #17534:

>Mind/body dualists tell us that there is no need for cryonics because the
>mind is a non-material substance which lives apart from the material brain
>and body, and can survive the death of the brain.  The argument against
>that has always been that a non-material substance could not cause changes
>in a material substance, so the mind (if it were non-material) could not
>cause changes in the physical body. In the past, we rejected dualism
>because we tend to think that our mind does cause changes in the body.

Dave goes on to note that contemporary dualists cite experiments with 
paired photons to argue that instantaneous action at a distance is 
possible. They use  this (apparent) result to rationalize the conclusion 
that a non-material substance can affect material things including the brain.

Dave concludes:

>For those of us who want to question mind/body dualism and the possible
>survival of the mind (soul?) surviving the death of the brain, we will need
>answers to prevail over them.
>
>
>Got any?

One possible counterargument is that the claimed action at a distance 
(non-locality) is not occurring at all, but is only an artifact of 
interpretation. The starting point for this is that, even though the 
correlations seem to occur instantaneously, they can never be *verified* at 
faster-than-light speed. In my book, pp. 118-132, there is a discussion of 
this issue. There the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is invoked to deny 
that nonlocal effects are present. The illustration, p. 129, shows how this 
can happen. Quoting the caption:

"How many-worlds preserves locality. (a) Twin photons speed in opposite 
directions toward distant observers with detectors. Results polarization up 
or down will be shown on computer monitor screens. (b) Observers and 
surroundings split as different states are observed [this is MWI] but 
splits propagate only at finite speed, not instantaneously [yes this also 
holds, though some have mistakenly claimed otherwise]. (c) Only as splits 
join are distant correlations established here up is paired with up and 
down with down so that there is no violation of the locality property."

MWI is controversial and not universally accepted. To me it is both simpler 
and less troublesome than its alternatives, but I don't speak for everyone. 
(Without MWI it appears you do have to start confronting nonlocality.) 
However, there is another point that should be raised here.

It is that even without duality there are possibilities for survival after 
destruction of the brain. The one I favor is pattern survival, in which a 
copy or suitable continuer of oneself eventually appears. If you consider 
yourself to be "bits, not atoms," as I do, this idea will make sense. 
Indeed, I argue in my book that, based on pattern survival, all the dead 
will be raised eventually, even those who were not frozen; the appropriate 
patterns must occur and recur in a randomizing multiverse. But I also 
maintain it is *better* to take the freeze (vitrification, whatever) if you 
can. The arguments are not so simple as in the viewpoint that you simply 
are not coming back if you don't get suspended. (What a horrible conclusion 
that leads to--all the people who died before cryonics was available simply 
wasted their lives and might as well not have bothered!). Still there are 
what I think some good reasons to be restored to life from perserved 
remains if possible (see ch. 13). You might also use these arguments to 
confront the dualists. Unfortunately, I doubt if they will 
listen--opposition to choosing preservation runs deep.

Mike Perry 

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