X-Message-Number: 17576 From: Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:09:08 EDT Subject: Spin Mastering in Detroit In a message dated 9/15/01 2:02:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Robert Ettinger writes: > He also says that Arab/Moslem hostility toward the US results from support > of Israel and from oppostion to our freedom and capitalism etc. The above statement is correct except that I used the word Islamic, not Arab/Moslem. There is an important distinction as Arabs per se and the greater Islamic world are not synonymous. Furthermore, I meant this statement. Insofar as it is possible to discern reality in terms of how large groups of humans feel, I believe it to be highly accurate. >Anyone with Darwin's pretensions to being a student of history should remember that >Arab/Moslem hatred long preceded the "occupation"--the wars were a RESULT of Arab >hatred, not the cause. This is a classic example of putting false words in someone else's mouth, namely in mine. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the history of the Middle East will realize that the people of Israel have been fighting over land and political issues in that area before Masada; as my Mother used to say when I was kid "those people have been fighting over that desert since shortly after Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden." However, that is far, far different from saying that the current situation along the US Eastern Seaboard is not directly linked to the United States' support of the modern state of Israel. I was shown endless bits of US armament fragments by Islamics of all stripes when I was in the middle East. The US has not been around since Masada, and, if it were not both a) culturally dominant in the world (which most people in Islamic countries despise) and b) providing direct and indirect support to Israel, it would not have been a target in the recent attack in my opinion. >As to the second, I'm not quite sure what Darwin's point is. Is he recommending that >we abandon freedom and capitalism to reduce Arab/Moslem hatred? Or that we refrain >from defending ourselves? I think my points were quite clear, but just in case the spin above has confused anyone I'll lay them out clear enough for a 12 year-old to understand: 1) I staunchly support Israel, in fact I support it far more intensely than the majority of Israelis I met with respect to what should be done in terms of military action. Yes, I have had a taste of the tyranny of the Rabbis, but I have had a belly full of the tyranny of the Mullahs. It is a largely gray state world we live in but I have no trouble making a choice in this instance! 2) The suggestion that I was advocating in any way abandoning capitalism or freedom for purposes of appeasement is egregious and Robert Ettinger knows better than to even think I would hold such an opinion. Those who have known me or read my writing over the past 20+ years will realize that quite the opposite is the case. Sadly, I believe now, as I always have, that fighting and dying are integral parts of defending anything you hold dear as long as there are others who are willing to do the same to wrest those things from you. 3) I do not believe there is any practical nonmilitary way to ultimately deal with the hatred and desire for the destruction of Western Civilization (nontotalitarian, sectarian and scientifically guided civilization) embraced by large segments of the Islamic world. Similarly, I feel that conflicts with China are also likely for much the same reasons. 4) I despised Communism, but having seen Political Islam I think Communism is positively appetizing by comparison. One of the interesting things about every communist country I visited, read about, or talked with migrants from, was the contempt for it held by large cross sections of the people under its yoke. Communism was largely tyranny from the top down. Islam is largely tyranny from the bottom up. Capitalism is no perfect ideal for me either. It is deeply undesirable in many ways, but it is the best system I've seen so far and I don't have any better ideas. >Anyone with Darwin's pretensions to being a student of history... This is ad hominem and a throwaway phrase; a little sound and fury signifying nothing. I offered my opinion and stated my experiences which are very different from those of most Americans. Pretensions? Go turn on TV or read Robert Ettinger's posts if you want pretensions. My opinion is worth as much as much or as little as it proves accurate and predictive. Time will tell. >Needless to say, CI (and cryonics generally) is nonpolitical Cryonics is and has been intensely political from the day it was born. Since I arrived on the scene practically the day after it was born I guess my opinion should count for something. The above statement gave me the first really good belly laugh I've had in a long, long time. One of my mentors, Curtis Henderson, told me when I was about 14 years old that if I wanted to really know what was going on somewhere I had to go there . That proved true in cryonics, and it proved equally true with respect to the Middle East. I was seriously planning on returning within a few months. My friends would ask in horror "Why on earth would you do that?!" My reply: "It's going to start any day now and I might as well be at ground zero." I guess I got the location of "ground zero" wrong. But then remember, I'm no expert. Mike Darwin Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17576