X-Message-Number: 17770
From: "Gurvinder Bagga" <>
Subject: For Scott/Kennita and others on Science V/s Religion
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:54:43 +0530

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Hi everyone,


I know a lot of discussion about religion on cryonet digresses from cryonics. 
But I was just participating in a discussion already on between cryonet members 
and did not want to 'save' anyone from thier fate, only learn from my 
experience.

Replying to Scott;


>Here in America, people "choose" to go to their
>church. Thoughts are not forced upon them. It just
>turns out that priests are just a lot better at
>persuasive appeals than scientists are because they've
>had a lot longer to hone their skills and because the
>human mind is highly vulnerable to religious memes. 
 

I don't understand how anyone can "choose" to go to church when this is what is 
FORCED upon you when you are one day old.

After that it becomes very difficult to resist. Let me show you another way. You
are given a name when you are very young. Suppose you are given a name you 
don't like. Most people who don't like their names do not want to change them. 
The reasons could be various , respect for your parents, legal etc. This applies
to religion also. People don't want to question their religion or why it is 
required and accept it like their names or mother tongue. That is why you have 
'Americans' going to 'church' and here in India "Indians" going to 'mandir'. It 
is a political issue. Religious institutions and the way people frequent these 
are defined by political boundaries and where you are born. This is NOT the case
with science.

>> 6. Science does not discriminate against females. 

>Ha!


I think I was talking about the subject. Not the people who are supposed to keep
it alive. Religion on the other hand does discriminate. Let me repeate - 
CHRIST-MALE,BUDDHA-MALE,MOHAMMED-MALE,MAHAVIR-MALE,MOSES-MALE,GURU 
NANAK-MALE,KRISNA-MALE, ZORASTER-MALE.... What do you have to say abouit this? 
The origin of religion is a non-female event. It seems females are being 
controlled thru religion by males. In fact one of the most rational philosophy 
that I have come across is 'objective philosophy' as explained in books by AYN 
RAND. Surprisingly she is a woman who defends science against religion and 
communism , two forces that have killed so many people in the world!


>Yes, many have been killed by those using
>a god as their excuse, but how many would have been
>killed throughout the ages by way of the barbarism
>that would likely have flourished without the
>religions of the world


I can only relate a part of a programme I saw on NG. It was about tribals in the
Phillipines. When a missionary tried to convert them to christianity they 
resisted. But some did change over eventually. But when the concept of hell/sin 
was told to them they became confused. According to these tribals humans can 
never be punished. This is what their legends says. So since they could not 
reconcile their past with christianity they gave it up and returned to their 
tribal form of life. Before we call 'stone age' type people 'barbarians' we 
should look at the way they live. There are quite a few 'barbarians' still on 
this planet particularly in the Amazon and the Congo. And their habitats are 
getting destroyed by civilized 'religious' humans!  And mind you, religion did 
not civilize the world. Science and the resulting progress did.

> No. Scientists are not in the business of finding
>"ultimate meaning". 



Refer to 'the theory of everything' using superstrings. That is the nearest I 
have come to a description of the universe which can then show us some meaning 
in it. Not in any religious text.

Replying to Kennita;

>Um -- by my rading, you were punished, not for being a Sikh, but for
>hitting a fellow student on the head with your kada.  Never mind if it
>was an accident.


I am sorry I should have made my point a little clearer. I did not remove the 
kada to hit him. That would have fractured his skull. It hit him unfortunately 
when my hand touched his forehead. If I had NOT been wearing the kada nothing 
would have happened. But I am not trying to vent my frustation at what happened.
People behaved irrationaly AFTER the incident. The christian teacher blamed 
sikhs and their kadas for the injury. That was stupid on his part. But maybe he 
did it because he was a christian. What if he himself had been a sikh?  Would I 
have been punished? Religion created the divide. 

>Otrowism -- belief that one's own way is the One True Right and Only Way.

Or Islam, christianity, hinduism, judaism, buddhism, sikhism.....

>I think we have a language problem here.  According to my American
>Heritage Dictionary, the definition of "atheism" is "Disbelief in
>or denial of the existence of God.".


I think I should put the record straight. I did not call myself an atheist in my
original post. It was Ruthanna ;

>You know, I continually find it remarkable how acceptable it is for
>atheists to generalize about "religious people."  


And it stuck. Anyway it's my fault I should have checked. I think I have not 
come across any word for a non-religious person who believes in GOD!  If there 
is one please let me know.


>Gurvinder, I can see that you are angry about how you have been 
>treated. and want to save others from your fate.  Attacking their 
>beliefs and culture is probably not the best way to win persuasion
>points, however.


I definitely want to tell others  about what happened to me. It is up to them to
learn or not. Attacking beliefs and cultures that are spread to children that 
are a day old and cannot protest shouln't be so bad. People have done worse to 
their felow humans on this planet.


One more thing. Like Thomas said religion has nothing to do with cryonics. 
People on cryonet who are deeply religious should be worried of the following;

If  your soul goes to heaven would you like to be revived?

If your soul goes to hell what would you become on revival?


If you are already reborn what would happen to your present body when you return
to your previous one? Will you just leave it midway?


These are questions without answering which religious people might be deceiving 
themsleves or wasting time on cryonet.

Gurvinder













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