X-Message-Number: 20146 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Badger <> Subject: Re: Mr. Dee's Challenge Hi everyone. What I would like to point out about this theist vs non-theist morality debate is that the theist tries to identify non-theist characters in history that have been responsible for atrocities, and then says he doesn't want to live in a world with these kinds of secular ideals. As if murderers, rapists and thieves are embraced by the secular community because of their moral acts and their secular ideals. Obviously, their are crazies in both camps, but ... The point is that large groups of secularists are less likely to be persuaded to engage in some irrational mission cooked up by some nutty sociopath to conquer or kill nother people. Secularists are by nature a rather skeptical bunch and harder to convince to participate in projects that are morally suspect. Whereas, religious types are more follower-oriented and hence more subject to manipulation by misguided zealots who they perceive as inspired authority figures. Another important point I'd like to make is that I believe the virtuous non-theist is a more moral person than the virtuous theist. Why? Because the virtuous theists are at least partly motivated by the the believe that they will be judged in the afterlife and possibly denied their heavenly reward if they aren't virtuous here on Earth. In other words, their morality is extrinsically motivated by their beliefs in heaven and hell. For non-theists, there is no such carrot being dangled in front of them. They are virtuous because it's the right thing to do and the only reward is in the here and now, and the better world that is created by acting morally. Non-theists are intrinsically motivated, taking personal responsibility for their morality. It is this intrinsic moral compass in the non-theists that immunizes us somewhat against immoral group-think behaviors as compared to the theists who are less skeptical of their religious leaders and thus more prone to being swept away by the rhetoric and the promises of eternal bliss. Just my opinion. Scott __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=20146