X-Message-Number: 20972 From: "michaelprice" <> References: <> Subject: more pedantry Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:09:23 -0000 Robert Ettinger writes: > It's tedious, but conceivably I may learn something, if only about > expository clarity. Who knows, perhaps even some physics? > 1. Michael Price writes: > >> If experiments one day revealed extra structure within electrons >> *enabling them to be subcategorised* they would not all suddenly >> collapse into lower atomic orbitals. Ergo we are not talking about >> what we know about electrons when we say they are identical, >> but about whether they really are identical in an absolute sense. > > This seems to imply that subcategorizations could occur, but could > not affect any type of observation, ever. No. The structure of the paragraph was 'if X then Y'. Y is impossible, hence X is impossible. Again: The possibility of further subcategorisation implies conflict with the observation that all electrons do not collapse into lower orbitals. Ergo, no further subcategorisation is possible. Ergo, electrons with same spin are identical. > Yet if they could not affect any type of observation, ever, > how could they be known or inferred in the first place? > > But he also writes: > >> This doesn't mean we can't make new discoveries about electron >> structure (e.g. string theory), but we do know that these discoveries >> will not provide a means of distinguishing one electron from another, >> i.e. of sub-categorising electrons further. > > So now [he] says further subcategorization is NOT possible. Correct. > This seems to contradict what he said above. No, for the reasons outlined above. > 2. Also, let's look again at: > >> Ergo we are not talking about what we know about electrons when >> we say they are identical, but about whether they really are identical >> in an absolute sense. > > "Absolute sense"? Once more, this means that NO type of observation, > including currently unforeseen types, can ever reveal any difference. Correct. > How can anyone possibly know that? This is not about what we *know*, but about what particles *do*. How can identical particles quantum interfere with each other? But they do! It is not our observations or degree of knowledge of the posited internal structure of electrons that tells two electrons to interfere but the fact that the two electrons are identical. Open any text book on quantum theory and you will find realms of calculations regarding the different behaviour of identical and non-identical particles. These differences are observed. End of story. Live with it. James Swayze: > So if I take a brick from my neighbor's house and he one > from his, we exchange and place them in our respective > houses, has my address now changed to his and his to mine? Since neither the bricks, houses nor selves are identical, no. Cheers, Michael C Price ---------------------------------------- http://mcp.longevity-report.com http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=20972