X-Message-Number: 21283 From: randy <> Subject: TO ERIC WISTER RE ALCOR VS CI Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 03:52:15 -0600 References: <> Eric Wister wrote: >>> I'm 45, in excellent health, and don't smoke. Incidentally, I live in Colorado, about 30 miles from Denver. Thanks to everyone who is emailing their advice! I appreciate it very much. Incidentally, I also received email from other people who are in the same situation, so apparently there are lots of similarly confused people out there who are ready to sign up once it's clear to us what kind of insurance we should buy and which organization we should sign up with. I realize that there are no easy answers, but some expert advice is very helpful! >>> Well, this list SHOULD be the place for discussing which cryo org to join, and it is just not being done here. I strongly encourage you and others to do so. It is just too important not to do so. However, in years past, such discussions often erupted into flamewars and bad feelings among the participants, which lasted for years. Now the majority of the discussion that goes on here is about uploading and conciousness, etc. Yawn.... To recap, a lot depends on the personal situation of the prospective cryonicist. CI offers a great value in many circumstances. You say you live in Denver. If there are several CI members who live there, who have cryopreservation equipment and can go on standby to freeze you, then that is a great deal at CI prices. A fantastic deal, really. Or if you do not live where there are CI members to freeze you, you might move to where there are CI members to freeze you--Michigan for example. Now at CI prices (30K?), that could be a hell of a good deal. But if there is not a CI team with equipment there, then you have to rely on a mortician/funeral home to freeze you and maintain you until shipped to CI itself. The question is, CAN YOU TRUST THE MORTICIAN TO DO A GOOD JOB? What is his stake? If he leaves you on the slab for a few hours at room temp, who is going to know? If he goes and eats lunch etc, and you are at room temp, a lot of those brain cells are going to autolyze. Poof! Is that going to be a showstopper for revival? No one knows! You really need someone to watch the mortician. If he leaves you at room temp for a couple of days, who is going to know? But your brain will turn to soup....and I am prety sure THAT will be a showstopper. Now let's take a look at the standby team concept. Alcor has always had standby team to take care of freezing, even in remote locations. THey have always traveled to where the patient is. But they have usually charged a steep fee for each day on standby, which you can put on your credit card. If you are single, then the credit card co gets stuck with the bill--they are out of luck.... I think, however, Alcor is no longer charging for standby. I am not sure, but that is what I read not too long ago. It also used to be that Alcor did not charge for standby that was done locally, in Phoenix. One thing about having standby teams made up of members is that they get burned out, and quit. This is bad. A lot of knowledge is lost. So, really, you may not be able to depend on a local standby team years down the road. You may move to Michigan (or wherever there is a local standby team), but in 30 years, those people may not be available to freeze you. I live in a very large city, Houston, and there is no local standby team here, at least as far as Alcor members are concerned. AFAIK, there are only 4 cryonicists here besides me, all Alcor, and they are all busy working--like me. No time for standby training. Neither CI nor Alcor is particularly forthcoming about standby arrangements. You have to email and ask. What would be a good thing would be to have a professional company, a 3rd party, be able to do remote standby and serve either cro org. I think that is what is happening at SA Inc. I know that they have recently done cryopreservations/vitrifications for both Alcor and CI. I do not know whether the patient had to pay extra (over the amount paid by the cryo org out of the death benefit from the insurance policy) to get cryopreserved. I sure wish both CI and Alcor would make such knowledge publicly available. Another concern regarding which cryo org to join has to do with membership numbers. Alcor publishes its membership numbers (now over 600). CI does not publish its membership numbers. I think that is because of CI's setup--you pay an initial membership fee, and then pay no more dues. Alcor requires a yearly fee. So the reason CI says it does not publish membership numbers is that there may be people who joined up years ago, but who no longer are interested in being frozen. Hmmm. The problem is that we need to have the membership numbers publicly available in order to promote growth and get new members. There needs to be a snowball effect. As cryonics grows and more people join, that growth will prompt MORE growth. But CI does not publish its membership numbers. Every person who joins CI just jumps into a black hole as far as membership numbers and the snowball effect is concerned... I think that is one big reason not to join CI. If you want to be frozen and revive in the distant future, you are taking on a task that is far from trivial. At this point in time, cryonics is a struggling and small movement. We need every advantage we can get. CI needs to publish its membership numbers! Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=21283