X-Message-Number: 21605 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:54:45 -0400 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: CryoNet #21468 - #21474 HI for Mike Perry: Yes, I know this is a late reply. I got lots of Cryonets when I was out of contact for a while and have been dipping into the older ones when I get the chance. As for awareness in computers, the problem is that they remain symbolic devices ie. devices which manipulate symbols. As human beings we find it hard to imagine brains which do not use symbols, but most animals provide examples. Their contact with their world is much closer than that of any robot, even if it has computer programs which take the data received, compute suitably on it, and then decree a response. The computer comes on the scene not as necessary but as an ultimately useless step in processing the world. Such a machine could be built with much more direct connections between its input and its output, even with several stages between them. It is the growing possibility that we'll actually become able, quite soon, to identify how awareness works in our brains using various tools which let us look into working brains (like fMRI) that makes this issue a serious question. I doubt that simple manipulation of symbols will be part of awareness because strong arguments exist that many animals are aware, too. Perhaps not as aware as we, but still aware. Our own human ability to manipulate symbols fools us into believing that is the only way brains can work: so insects act by brains which manipulate symbols? And even insects have quite complex reactions to external input. And I would say that awareness requires a much closer tie with the world than any symbolic tie could ever provide. As for whether humans can be seen as behaving like computers, that is a quite separate question. Perhaps if you only look at external behavior (though it would take a VERY advanced computer!) but when you can watch in detail how their brains are actually working that becomes questionable. The fundamental problem with any computer theory of how we work comes from its circularity. We are learning right now how we actually work, using tools such as fMRI and others. Previous ideas depended on the notion that we could never do this, but times change. No, what I've said here will not settle the question in the minds of many people. Besides, it's late here and I am going to bed. I am happy to continue this discussion later. Best wishes and long long life for all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=21605