X-Message-Number: 21968 From: Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:42:42 EDT Subject: Re: CryoNet #21955 - #21962 In a message dated 6/13/03 2:03:06 AM, writes: << Once we've squandered what's left of the planet's fossil thermodynamic capital, the human race faces a massive die-off and a PERMANENT dark age, no matter how much technological knowledge we might have acquired by then >> Pardon me, Mark Plus, but this is doomsday nonsense. I suggest that you consult the very well documented writings of the late Julian L. Simon, e.g. The Ultimate Resource-2, Princeton Univ Press, 1996 or the more recent but equally well documented and , to me, highly persuasive writing of Bjorn Lomborg, The Skeptical Environmentalist, Cambridge Univ Press, 2001. Both these authorities have been attacked with brick bats by the so-called mainstream environmentalists who have a vested interest in the doomsday scenario, but their work stands uncontradicted, as far as I have been able to follow. This is important for cryonicists because our frozen selves will have no future if the doomsdayers are right, and this goes far beyond the price of liquid nitrogen. Stodolsky is also right in asserting that the "fossil" origins of petroleum and natural gas is far from being a proven theory. What is clear is that the "known reserves" of practically all natural resources have continued to expand, leading demand, throughout my lifetime of nearly seven decades. The first reaction I always get when I raise the possibility of cryonics with supposedly educated friends and colleagues relates to the pervasive scarcity hypothesis. "Where will we put everybody? There will be no room, no energy, no food, etc. etc. Everything has its limits, even and perhaps especially knowledge, so we will never be able to do this or that." I believe that there are no real limits to growth, to our knowledge, to our technology, to our resources, and to our capacity to extract and utilize resources. I consulted Jay Hanson's DIE OFF Website at your recommendation and found the same old doomsday hokum. The chart shows everything going up to today or tomorrow. That is where the real data stops. Then, as you say, falling off the cliff the next day where we have no real data but only "models" rigged to "prove" that the sky is falling. Mark Plus, you are the source of many excellent references which I can make use of in my writings, but why fall off this phony cliff? Ron Havelock Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=21968