X-Message-Number: 22950 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:14:12 -0800 From: "John Grigg" <> Subject: true friends & cryonics Paul Wakfer wrote: Speaking for myself and Kitty, neither of us consider anyone on this list to be "friends". We think that it is important for people to be more judgmental of character and worldview when selecting friends and to only call people "friends" when they share one's *fundamental* approach to reality. (end) I have to take issue with this. I admit the word "friend" is perhaps used too freely in American society, but I do at least to an extent consider some of the people here to be my friends. And if I met them at a real world gathering it would be a very fond time for me getting to know the "full" them. I understand the desire to know someone's character before considering them a friend but I disagree that friends must always have the same fundamental worldview. Sometimes good friendships are among people of good character (or even bad) who are very different. you continue: We do not understand how anyone can think that a mere desire to be cryopreserved (which is little different from the simple instinct for human survival) is evidence of such a fundamental similarity. When cryonicists begin to realize that other cryonicists come with almost all the same differences which they find among people in society in general and do *not* have much philosophy in common, they will realize that they should *not* treat each other as "friends", but instead as merely other individuals with a narrow common goal. This does not, of course, mean that cryonicists should not act with courtesy and common decency of consideration toward one another. Such should be the default action even between strangers in any society which hopes to attain the long range interests of all through the medium of free exchange of values to mutual self-interest. (end) I would say cryonicists *tend* to sometimes have similar interests and qualities which extend beyond mere cryonics. An interest in general technological progress, thinking outside the box and wanting to examine issues, health and fitness, etc. are among common factors. I think the extropian list and Cryonet are testament to this. you continue: I am stating this so strongly because I see it happening among many people on this list. I am one who in the past made this mistake twice (at least). Both when I became a Libertarian (active party member) in the mid 70s and when I became a cryonicist (end 80s), each time I stupidly thought "here I will find more people who think, approach life, and value aspects of reality like I do." Each time I was drawn in and gave up far too much of my personal resources before I realized that this was not so at all. Each time, I was thoroughly disgusted and depressed by the results and the failure. Finally, I have matured to the stage where that will not happen again. (end) I see your point about viewing other cryonicists as "fellow goal seekers" instead of friends. But I think people tend over time to see others they associate with as friends, at least at a nominal level. That does not mean you have to totally drop your guard or let the other people walk on you like a doormat. I am sorry to hear you have been so burned by people in the past. you continue: This having been said and understood, however, I still think there are many things that cryonicists can do jointly to promote their common goals even as narrow as those are and as different from one another as cryonicists are personally. (end) I think there are times when cryonicists can "let their hair down" and enjoy each other's company and even their mutual differences. I have had experiences like this at the Creekside Lodge when Alcor had events there. you continue: > (Rudi Hoffman writing) > > I also wonder as does James whether some of his mentioned (and unmentioned) > former cryonics "activists" are lurking or simply have stop reading Cryonet. > > (The cynics among us might say "Well, perhaps they got a life!:)) Nevertheless, it is important for everyone to also have a life fully apart from cryonics, especially since as I described above, there is no basis in cryonics itself for any complete approach to life. (end) I totally agree with you on this point. I view cryonics simply as an extreme life extension measure which will get me from point A in time to point B. Of course the politics and technological progress needed to make it a reality does enliven and complicate things. A huge advantage religion has over cryonics or transhumanism is that in many ways it is a complete approach to life and has roots going back millennia. Mike Perry is working on a book to create a rational form of religion and perhaps centuries from now he will be seen as the Martin Luther of the 21st century. And he does have sort of a monastic "medievalist" feel to him. : ) you continue: > Especially Fred and Linda Chamberlain, people who are certainly among the > pioneers of cryonics. I like them both, and truly wish them well. It would be > nice to have an update regarding Linda's cancer. I hope she has recovered. > > Does it seem strange to anyone else that the Chamberlains just "dropped out > of sight" on the cryonics radar? Not really. It is highly characteristic of them. They did exactly this before. It seems that if they cannot be running things they have little interest. I am *not* criticizing this. In fact, it is a reasonable characteristic to have. *I* certainly would not even want to have a board of Directors telling me what to do and what not to do. That is precisely why I was self-employed for most of my formal working life, and it is why my "career" in cryonics ultimately failed - my plans were dependent on too many other people. However unfortunately, the nature of cryonics (and the optimal operation of society in general) *is* necessarily dependent on the mutual cooperation of many people toward common goals. What many of us need therefore, are clear delimitations of the extent of that necessary cooperation rather than a general kind of getting-in-bed-together "friendship". (end) And I suppose in regards to our larger society that is why the legal profession keeps so busy these days. lol The Chamberlains I suppose have moved on for good. But Alcor did well with Dr. Lemler and hopefully will find an excellent replacement for him. The new president will have definitely have his/her hands full. I can't wait to see who the new person will be! ; ) John Grigg ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=22950