X-Message-Number: 22950
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:14:12 -0800
From: "John Grigg" <>
Subject: true friends & cryonics

Paul Wakfer wrote:
Speaking for myself and Kitty, neither of us consider anyone on this 
list to be "friends". We think that it is important for people to be 
more judgmental of character and worldview when selecting friends and to 
only call people "friends" when they share one's *fundamental* approach 
to reality.
(end)


I have to take issue with this.  I admit the word "friend" is perhaps used too 
freely in American society, but I do at least to an extent consider some of the 
people here to be my friends.  And if I met them at a real world gathering it 
would be a very fond time for me getting to know the "full" them.


I understand the desire to know someone's character before considering them a 
friend but I disagree that friends must always have the same fundamental 
worldview.  Sometimes good friendships are among people of good character (or 
even bad) who are very different.

you continue:
We do not understand how anyone can think that a mere desire to be 
cryopreserved (which is little different from the simple instinct for 
human survival) is evidence of such a fundamental similarity. When 
cryonicists begin to realize that other cryonicists come with almost all 
the same differences which they find among people in society in general 
and do *not* have much philosophy in common, they will realize that they 
  should *not* treat each other as "friends", but instead as merely 
other individuals with a narrow common goal. This does not, of course, 
mean that cryonicists should not act with courtesy and common decency of 
consideration toward one another. Such should be the default action even 
between strangers in any society which hopes to attain the long range 
interests of all through the medium of free exchange of values to mutual 
self-interest.
(end)


I would say cryonicists *tend* to sometimes have similar interests and qualities
which extend beyond mere cryonics.  An interest in general technological 
progress, thinking outside the box and wanting to examine issues, health and 
fitness, etc. are among   
common factors.  I think the extropian list and Cryonet are testament to this.

you continue:
I am stating this so strongly because I see it happening among many 
people on this list. I am one who in the past made this mistake twice 
(at least). Both when I became a Libertarian (active party member) in 
the mid 70s and when I became a cryonicist (end 80s), each time I 
stupidly thought "here I will find more people who think, approach life, 
and value aspects of reality like I do." Each time I was drawn in and 
gave up far too much of my personal resources before I realized that 
this was not so at all. Each time, I was thoroughly disgusted and 
depressed by the results and the failure. Finally, I have matured to the 
stage where that will not happen again.
(end)


I see your point about viewing other cryonicists as "fellow goal seekers" 
instead of friends.  But I think people tend over time to see others they 
associate with as friends, at least at a nominal level.  That does not mean you 
have to totally drop your guard or let the other people walk on you like a 
doormat.  I am sorry to hear you have been so burned by people in the past.

you continue:
This having been said and understood, however, I still think there are 
many things that cryonicists can do jointly to promote their common 
goals even as narrow as those are and as different from one another as 
cryonicists are personally.
(end)


I think there are times when cryonicists can "let their hair down" and enjoy 
each other's company and even their mutual differences.  I have had experiences 
like this at the Creekside Lodge when Alcor had events there.

you continue:
> (Rudi Hoffman writing)
> 
> I also wonder as does James whether some of his mentioned (and unmentioned) 
> former cryonics "activists" are lurking or simply have stop reading Cryonet. 
> 
> (The cynics among us might say "Well, perhaps they got a life!:))

Nevertheless, it is important for everyone to also have a life fully 
apart from cryonics, especially since as I described above, there is no 
basis in cryonics itself for any complete approach to life.
(end)


I totally agree with you on this point.  I view cryonics simply as an extreme 
life extension measure which will get me from point A in time to point B.  Of 
course the politics and technological progress needed to make it a reality does 
enliven and complicate things.


A huge advantage religion has over cryonics or transhumanism is that in many 
ways it is a complete approach to life and has roots going back millennia.


Mike Perry is working on a book to create a rational form of religion and 
perhaps centuries from now he will be seen as the Martin Luther of the 21st 
century.  And he does have sort of a monastic "medievalist" feel to him. : )

you continue:
> Especially Fred and Linda Chamberlain, people who are certainly among the 

> pioneers of cryonics.  I like them both, and truly wish them well.  It would 
be 
> nice to have an update regarding Linda's cancer.  I hope she has recovered.  
> 
> Does it seem strange to anyone else that the Chamberlains just "dropped out 
> of sight" on the cryonics radar?

Not really. It is highly characteristic of them. They did exactly this 
before. It seems that if they cannot be running things they have little 
interest. I am *not* criticizing this. In fact, it is a reasonable 
characteristic to have. *I* certainly would not even want to have a 
board of Directors telling me what to do and what not to do. That is 
precisely why I was self-employed for most of my formal working life, 
and it is why my "career" in cryonics ultimately failed - my plans were 
dependent on too many other people. However unfortunately, the nature of 
cryonics (and the optimal operation of society in general) *is* 
necessarily dependent on the mutual cooperation of many people toward 
common goals. What many of us need therefore, are clear delimitations of 
the extent of that necessary cooperation rather than a general kind of 
getting-in-bed-together "friendship".
(end)


And I suppose in regards to our larger society that is why the legal profession 
keeps so busy these days. lol  


The Chamberlains I suppose have moved on for good.  But Alcor did well with Dr. 
Lemler and hopefully will find an excellent replacement for him.  The new 
president will have definitely have his/her hands full.  I can't wait to see who
the new person will be! ; )     

John Grigg



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