X-Message-Number: 22986
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 19:03:24 -0800
From: "John Grigg" <>
Subject: Israel, the Diaspora, and the dark side of human nature 

In a message dated 30/11/2003 10:00:45 GMT Standard Time, Basie writes:

> Whether they were murdered like Jews in WII is another matter. I and many
> others like Israel. This war is to help our friend Israel. Why are people so
> scared to say it?
> 


I honestly don't think helping Israel was one of the primary reasons for 
overthrowing Saddam and occupying Iraq.  But the Israeli's would seem to benefit
(we will see).

Tim wrote:
Might have something to do with their appalling human rights record,  

indiscriminate bombing of civilians,  and the 'seizing' of Palestinian land 
despite 
the border agreements that were made after the war in 1960's.
>


As the saying goes "when fighting monsters be careful not to turn into one 
yourself."  

Tim wrote:
Personally, I have no reason to either like or dislike them and have got on 
ok with most all I have come across so far, but it has to be said that they 
seem to cause trouble with the locals where ever they settle in the world.
>


Whoa!!!  I think you may get some major negative feedback for your last line 
here!


Tim, now are we talking about the *government* of the nation of Israel or the 
"supposed" personality and temperament of the Jewish ethnicity?  


The western world owes the Jews so much for their huge contributions to 
literature, history, law and ethics.    


I grew up in a home where I was taught the Jews and especially the nation of 
Israel were God's chosen people and that if we economically/militarily supported
this farflung little country that we would be greatly blessed.  So I admit even
to this day I have a hard time criticizing them even when they go to extremes 
in their own defense/offense.


I think much of the conflict they have had with the "locals" in nations like 
Germany, Russia or even the U.S. was because their religion and culture made 
them stand out and appear different.  And as we all know standing out and 
appearing different in even innocuous ways can make one a target of hate crimes.
And those Jews who were financially successful were looked at with vicious 
envy by certain hateful members of the broader population.


A higher standard of living which came to some Jews from the strong cultural 
emphasis on education, social networking, and hard work may have also 
inadvertently fueled the prejudice.  This does not in any way excuse the 
horrific persecutions the Jews have endured over the millennia.  Much of what I 
said here could also be applied to Chinese & Indian immigrants who settled all 
over the globe and prospered.  

Tim wrote:
Can't helping noticing the use of the word friend in the above quote.....  in 
this context I would find it hard to regard 'Israel' as a friend of mine.
>


Israel has been a friend to the United States by its very presence in the heart 
of the Arab world.  They give us an invaluable foothold in a volatile area.  And
don't forget they are the only democracy in the immediate region.  I think of 
Israel as a tough as nails younger brother to the U.S. who we are proud of when 
he beats up a number of neighborhood bullies who like to come at him singly or 
even all at once.  But hopefully what happened in 1967 and 1973 will not be seen
again. 


What does any of this have to do with cryonics?  Nothing really, but cryonicists
do live in the larger world.  And that larger world can even seep through into 
Cryonet.

John






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