X-Message-Number: 23150 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:12:18 -0800 From: James Swayze <> Subject: Has Libertarianism been tried? References: <> I say Libertarianism has been, is being, tried and is dismally failing. Please, those who think otherwise, read this essay, it's a bit dated but still relevant, and see what I mean. I dare you. http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/jssocfu1.html On a similar note, right now huge drift nets are dragging the bottoms of the open oceans with impunity in complete free market reign without regulation in international waters with no one stopping them raping the ocean bare (see current Pop-sci issue page 76, "Murder of the Bounty: The Empty Seas". Think this is not a problem? Think again, many cures for many things that ail us and even some that might cure aging ills are found in the creatures that live in the coral reefs that are being destroyed when the drift nets a mile long and hundreds of yards wide indiscriminately drag the bottom dragging everything into them leaving the reefs devastated. Such devastation does not repair quickly and at this rate of destruction we could be losing species not even yet discovered and who knows what they could do for us! Of course I would hope that any cures found would be synthesized and not excuse for another kind of indiscriminate exploitation. Pray do tell Rad-Libs how these kinds of unregulated abuses would be kept from happening by merely free market forces? I don't see tuna boycotts stopping the senseless slaughter of dolphins. Japanese fishermen were just caught outright murdering thousands! I'm all for lessening regulation where it is done responsibly but our history, especially recent history under Libertarian leaning Neo-con administrations has been anything but wise and responsible or ethical or even nodding at all to the good of the public which includes the individual. These excesses are directly affecting my right as an individual to live in a world free of toxins and full of a variety of life, life that my *individually free* life and yours depends upon!! It's one thing to pontificate and ponder ideal if-only-could-be's it's an entirely other to realize frickin reality! We are not *yet* a moral enough species to be trusted with totally unregulated lives. I truly believe we one day will be if our larger goals here on this forum come to fruition. Libertarian deregulation has been going on since Reagan-Bush, what has it got us? The above essay will tell you exactly what it got us. What it has not got us is a moral atmosphere for business practices and more individual freedom. All it has done is made for more toxins in our air and water and food, less jobs, more jobs taken overseas, more working homeless, people thrown off insurance plans when they got sick that they paid into for years and no one in the government helped them force the insurance companies to pay. Thanks a lot Objectivist Neo-Cons!! When you dream of 'free market land' be sure you aren't currently being duped by the lies that are common place in business ethics and indeed expected (see the above mentioned essay). Lastly, after this, I'm no longer going to post on this subject. I'm of the opinion that neither side will give an inch until their opinions are proved wrong by something drastic. I would need to see real evidence that deregulation is leading to better lives for *all* even the least among us, and it currently is certainly not. James -- Member: Cryonics Institute of Michigan http://www.cryonics.org The Immortalist Society http://www.cryonics.org/info.html The Society for Venturism http://www.venturist.org Immortality Institute http://www.imminst.org MY WEBSITE: http://www.davidpascal.com/swayze/ Signature Memetic Virus--The worst enemy of those who now or will need medical care is the uninformed politician or moral fanatic who proscribe what doctors are allowed to prescribe and research, with the consent of their patients. Those who understand this are strongly encouraged to modify this to fit their personality, and add this to their signature file, and organize to recover our freedom from Big Brother. For those who wait until they are sick, it will be too late. Those who suffer from diseases which might have been cured by advanced medical research or schedule 1 drugs banned by Big Brother, have the right to hold accountable those who sat on their hands or worse, deferred their responsibility for personal and humanity's survival to unseen mystical agents, while they remained ill and dying. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23150