X-Message-Number: 23457 From: Subject: Re: Scientific Evaluation of Cryonics Protocol Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:29:29 US/Eastern Adversarial public e-mail exchanges can be informative and some people find them entertaining. But for me they are very inconvenient. Most of the time I am frantically busy and I don't want to have to give top priority to providing a hasty answer. Additionally, it does not serve my strategy of effective deployment to announce my plans for dealing with ischemia & vitrification in the heat of a CryoNet debate. I will therefore make this posting my last message on the subject -- and leave it to Charles to attack me as he sees fit -- charges which I will not answer. I must admit that there are "political" overtones to this discussion which hamper addressing issues on purely scientific terms. I have not been forthcoming about this, but I feel pressured to be more candid. Again, I would rather be motivated to communicate by the propriety of the communication than by pressure -- another reason to avoid CryoNet debates on these subjects. I mean no disrespect to Mike Darwin or Steve Harris. I have learned a great deal from Mike Darwin. I have had two Transport Technician trainings from the man. Dr. Harris is a very knowledgeable physician who has shown great boldness in committing his professional training & status to the cause of cryonics. Nonetheless, I have doubts about the CCR anti-ischemic meds. These meds are said to have allowed a dog to experience 17 minutes of warm ischemia in one experiment in which the dog showed complete neurological recovery -- a "world record". I believe that an untreated dog would not last more than about 10 minutes (humans have a greater ischemic tolerance than dogs). I cannot remember the details, but I believe Mike Darwin admitted to pre-treating the dogs in a manner he claimed was not material. (This was discussed on CryoNet and if a diligent person can search the archives I would appreciate being reminded of the exact pre-treatment.) The experiment was never published in a peer-reviewed journal. The formulation is secret. Thus, the case for the anti-ischemic potency of the CCR cocktail rests on the credibility of the scientists, rather than on published science. For me to question the result is the equivalent of character assassination -- which is not what I want. Although an honest mistake is also a possibility. The great majority of people in the developed nations of the world die of cardiovascular disease -- heart disease or stroke. Hordes of scientists have researched anti-ischemic medications. Many have shown favorable results in animal experiments, but none have passed clinical trials. We are told that the vast superiority of the CCR anti-ischemic meds cannot benefit the general public because of problems with cocktail preparations winning FDA approval. I find this hard to believe. There are hordes of scientists who do pure research who care nothing about FDA approval and who would love to show proof of something -- anything -- which could reduce ischemia in cardiovascular disease victims. Even without FDA approval the scientific acclaim would be great. Of special note is the world's leading resuscitation scientist -- Peter Safar. The greatest anti-ischemic treatment he has found -- and the focus of his research -- is hypothermia. I think FDA approval is the least of Dr. Safar's concerns. Assuming that the CCR anti-ischemia treatment does reduce ischemia, how much additional benefit might it add to CPS & cooling? What if it were one-thousandth of the beneifit of CPS & cooling? Would that justify the cost? Every decision requires cost/benefit analysis. If cost were not a factor, then I would have a cryonically-equipped team of paramedics & physicians with me 24-hours a day. (I am not saying that CCR meds only provide one-thousandth the benefit -- the figure is probably higher.) Cost is a very important factor for local groups. It is also true -- and I know this from experience -- that individuals are often intimidated into inaction because of the complexity (and cost) of meds -- as well as of portible ice baths. It is not enough to say that this SHOULD NOT be the case. It IS the case. (Only a few local groups in the world have an Alcor equipment/meds kit in their city.) Any CI member who wishes to receive the CCR meds from a Transport Team can do so by making arrangements with Suspended Animation. This has been announced in THE IMMORTALIST several times. The next issue of THE IMMORTALIST will announce that Suspended Animation has an agreement with ACS to provide service to its members. Although I have recently had the insight that "the death of death in cryonics" also applies to cell death -- and that most cell death of cryonics patients who have been perfused is easily-repaired apoptotic death -- I am not indifferent to ischemic damage. I hope to see CI patients who are not receiving SA service benefitting from a number of anti-ischemic & vitrification options which I will announce when it is appropriate to do so. -- Ben Best Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23457