X-Message-Number: 23485
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:38:29 -0500
From: randolfe wicker <>
Subject: Re 23466 Death and Exercise

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I will inject my comments between the paragraphs of the following email.



----- Original Message ----- 

From: David Wallace Croft 

To:  

Cc:  ;  

Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:11 AM

Subject: [Venturists] Venturism as a religion

 

David Pizer,


David Pizer wrote:
> Some members didn't like the word "church."  It has been hard enough to get
> them to accept "religion."
> Also, I think "Church" sounds too cultish.




This reminds me of the current debate about civil unions versus gay marriage. 
People object to "church" because churches are the homes for religion.




A similar hangover effect can be found in discussions at The Immortality 
Institute.  The members there chose a title for a book using the term "infinite 
lifespans" instead of "immortality".




When I discussed the mixed feelings among Immortalists when it came to 
describing themselv es as such, a friend pointed out that "immortality" was 
reserved solely for dieties.  In fact, the ancient Gods of Greece were called 
"The Immortals".




I think a name such as the "Church of Immortality" sounds grand, respectable and
proper.



What do you think about "Fellowship"?  I've noticed a recent trend that 
UU congregations are changing their names from Fellowship to Church. 
Here is one example:
http://www.oakcliffuu.com/history.shtml




If we're going to have a religion, let's not be namby pamby about it.  Sure, we 
can have all kinds of "fellowships" in our Church of Immortality (or should we 
call it the "Church of the Immortals").


This country was founded on the principle of religious liberty.  The only manner
in which we will be able to put our "faith" into practice, such as suspending 
our bodies cryonically, is by forcing other religionists to respect our right to
belief and practice just as we respect theirs.



> We never did define ourselves as a mainstream religion.  We are an
> organization that promotes an attempt for physical immortality.  We take our
> beliefs as seriously as some other people take their religion.  It's
> ultimate to us.



You simply underscore my previous argument with that comment.


No religion commences as a mainstream religion. Visionaries declare and preach 
the truths they have found.


They build temples, churches, cathedrals where periodically gather with others 
to renew their faith, to practice their faith.  Cryonicists could have a center 
called "The Cathedral of Ice" with crystal spires that threw rainbows of hope 
across the land just as others had church bells that rang. 



The American Humanist Association (AHA) has its roots in Religious 
Humanism, basically a religion for atheists, as an offshoot from the 
Unitarians.  I suspect that the Council for Secular Humanism split off 
from the AHA because they did not want to be identified as a religion.




And these groups accomplish nothing because only a proclaimed proud religion has
the fire and spirit to inspire and attract others.


These groups are like three legged horses trying to compete in a race.  For one 
thing, they do not promise the "immortality" that most true religions do.




A "Church of Immortality" or a "Church of Immortals" could really compete.  You 
don't "half-believe" in your true religion.  You believe in it totally, with all
your heart and with all (what some call) your soul.


I was recently told by Camp Fire U.S.A. that although they did not 
discriminate on the basis of religion, they could discriminate against 
atheism since it is not a religion. 




The nerve of Camp Fire U.S.A.!  How dare they!  Once we have established our 
church, we'll douse their flames with legal suits accusing them of religious 
discrimination.

 


Don't like coming back to the topic, but that is just what is happening today in
the marriage/civil unions debate.


You get your gay marriage recognized in Massachusetts or San Francisco or even 
Canada.  Then you make the rest of the world recognize it because "it" (marriage
or church) does exist and have a legal entity with rights ensuing.

 

This kind of argument is one reason 
atheists like Newdow of Pledge of Allegiance fame are pushing for 
atheism as a religion.  A "religion" has better legal protection than a 
"philosophy".  This could be important to your survival if you plan to 
freeze your head.




It is rather charming how we seem to be repeating ourselves a bit.  Almost 
reminds me of a bunch of Jehovah Witnesses or other religious nuts (ha).



> We are managed in a similar way as Alcor.  The board of directors votes.
> They elect themselves and others to the board.  Members who express an
> interest in management first ask to be on a board of advisors.  Advisors are
> informed of the same issues that directors are.  Advisors can put their
> suggestions and ideas to any board discussions.  (We do this mostly by
> email).  When a vacancy in the board comes up, the board will somethimes
> fill that vacancy from the list of advisors.  Very much like Alcor does.  I
> don't know how CI does it.




You have to have a religion before you can set up organizations.  History tells 
us that most religions are founded by individuals possessed of a vision.


Jesus Christ didn't poll the disciples (or did he?).  You agreed with Mohammed 
or he cut off your head (still seems to be that way in some places).


Joseph Smith led his faithful to Utah.  There they have flourished.  Jim Jones 
lead his flock to Guiana and then on directly into heaven.



That was something that bothered me about the Extropian Institute (EI) 
and the North Texas Church of Freethought (NTCoF).  I'm more familiar 
with the professional society such as the IEEE or a Protestant church 
where the general members elect their leadership.  I suppose it could be 
a tricky issue when assets are involved and the group is just starting up.




It gets trickier after you have thousands of believers leaving you millions of 
dollars.


I don't care about organization. I just want to get some people up and out there
preaching.

Cloningly yours,



Randolfe Wicker






201-656-3280

-- 
David Wallace Croft
http://www.transhumanistchurch.org/
(214) 731-9284






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