X-Message-Number: 24982 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:54:22 -0500 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: CryoNet #24974 - #24980 Hi everyone! For John de Rivaz and others: If I understand properly the situation with yeasts discussed in Longo's theory, all of the cells involved are clones of one another. Evolution basically tries to preserve our genone, not our individual selves, as we all know very well. A theory discussing just how evolution works on yeast cells says very little about how it works on humans, whether or not it turns out to be correct. For Yvan Bozzonetti: At least you made an effort. Here is a few more things you might do in France without taking on the whole French government: first, check about just how low a temperature a refrigerator can go in order to still qualify as a refrigerator in the eyes of the French government. I'm NOT suggesting that you and other cryonics sympathizers in France use low temp refrigerators for long term storage, but for short term storage until you can move the patients out of France. Second, and perhaps ultimately more substantial, I will tell you what I and a very few cryonicists (there are more now) did in Australia as we set up a cryonics organization there: We had all joined a US society, and clearly because of our distance from one another and small number, we didn't expect to support full cryonic suspensions anytime soon. However there is a fact about death and dying which rarely occurs in movies, novels, or popular understanding: in about 80 % of REAL HUMAN DEATHS, that death is predictable more than 1 week in advance. This actually means a lot. IF you organize to help one another beforehand, then you are likely to be able to get out of France while living (but still dying) to be suspended elsewhere. If you're one of the unlucky 20%, then there is the low-temperature refrigerator. Eventually there will be enough French cryonicists that you can think about political activities. And one way to increase that number is to stop accepting the fatuity of your government and do something to get as many French suspended as you can. Finally I'll add that if you can use low temp refrigerators, then you'll need to do much of the operation of suspension before lowering a patient's temperature below freezing. It's also possible to do the preliminary stages and store someone just above freezing: removal of their blood, replacement with protective solution, etc. This will end up taking more than the cooperation of a few local cryonicists. However temperatures just above freezing, plus protective solutions, have been used for some cryonics patients in Australia (others have gone ASAP to the US, accompanied by at least one other person, for complete suspension in the US). And to be a bit more specific about predictors of imminent death: if you're dying of cancer, then you're likely to be able to run to the US in time, if you confront what's happening to you. Massive strokes and heart attacks are the worst cases here (although with them you can also find out your risks beforehand). Many accidents which ultimately cause death of a victim don't kill him or her immediately, but this depends a lot on the nature of the accident. As for the time available if a patient is refrigerated, I'm more optimistic than you. It would be useful for all the detailed reports which Alcor puts out, telling not just of successes but of mistakes and foulups, were collected together for reference. I'd say that 3 days is on the boundary, but especially if all the patient's blood has been removed and replaced by a protective solution, it's likely to ultimately work. One interesting report I wrote up in the latest PERIASTRON deals with a way to revive neurons after 3 HOURS lack of oxygen at normal temperatures. It still needs lots of work: the paper discussed individual neurons, not brains, but its discoveries suggest that such methods should eventually extend to whole brains. And this was NOT low temperature, but normal temperature in which we conduct our lives. Best wishes and long long life for all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=24982