X-Message-Number: 25460
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 17:10:29 +0100
From: Henri Kluytmans <>
Subject: Survival of QE after disassembly

Richard (rbr) claimes that his so called "qualia experiencer"
(QE) will not survive disassembly and reassembly at the atomic 
level (in a **frozen person**).

It should be apparent that he believes that his QE will survive 
being frozen (without disassembly) because otherwise he would not 
have signed up for cryonics. 

However claiming that the QE will not survive disassembly-reassembly 
equals assuming the existence of new physical processes...

---

According to physics, a macroscopic object frozen, at for 
example 20 degrees Kelvin, when taken apart by separating 
all atoms, and then being reassembled, should result in the 
object being chemically exactly the same as before.

The only things that will be destroyed by disassembly at 
the atomic level, would be the exact quantum states of the 
individual atoms and molecules. However individual quantum 
states are perturbed all the time (by thermal excitations, 
radiation, and sporadical nuclear decays, etc...). The 
exact individual quantum states are not important for the 
overall chemical structure and functioning of physical objects. 

Notable exceptions are quantum logic circuits, where the 
individual exact quantum states of molecules (from larger systems 
actually) are indeed essential. But to preserve these quantum states 
from external disturbances just long enough to perform a logic operation 
requires enormous preparations. And the timescales of isolation 
for systems larger than microscopic size are measured in less 
than a billionth of a second. In current experiments with quantum 
computations the systems are cooled close to absolute zero to 
decrease thermal disturbances that result in decoherence.
And the larger the system the more difficult it gets to keep it 
isolated long enough.

It seems **very very very implausible** that preservation of 
certain quantum states is essential for the functioning of 
our mind.  Typical functioning temperature, and system size 
of neural networks in the brain make it very implausible that 
quantum coherence can be maintained long enough to perform any
logic operations.

It seems very plausible that the functioning of our mind is 
based only on components at neural level. (i.e. based upon 
the functional behavior of a neurons as we understand today).
Current neuro-science is assuming this. And already artificial neural 
network systems have been shown to be able to perform the same 
functional behavior as certain biological neurological structures 
(e.g. optical system, auditory system, see "The Handbook of Brain 
Theory and Neural Networks" for more information). 

One could claim that certain neurolocigal systems (i.e. the ones 
responsible for the QE) function at a very different level from 
the ones already analysed and artificially reproduced. But if so, 
I would like to know on what rational/empirical basis this assumption 
is made.

Richard claims are even more extraordinairy. He claims that the 
QE remains intact when the body is frozen (for example to 20 degrees
Kelvin). But when that frozen body is then disassembled and reassembled 
at the atomic level the QE is destroyed in the process. However according 
to physics the chemical structure of the reassembled body is identical, and 
it's chemical functioning should thus be identical too. ( Of course 
exact individual quantum states are not preserved, but they are 
perturbed all the time anyway, and could therefore never be responsible 
for any process at more than molecular scales. )

If the QE does not survive, this can only mean that is based on more 
than chemical processes.

Claiming that the functioning of the mind is based on more than the 
known neural components is already very implausible.

Claiming that the functioning of the mind is based on more than 
chemical processes is a very extraordinairy claim. I would like 
to see extra-ordinairy evidence to support that.

----

My questions to Richard BR are :

1) I would like to know what kind of new and still unknown physical forces 
and/or processes are responsible for keeping the QE intact in a 
frozen body that will be destroyed by atomic disassembly-reassembly ?

2) What is the rational reason to assume such new forces and/or processes ?

(I do not know any rational reasons, however I can imagine emotional ones.)

Cheers,
>Hkl

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