X-Message-Number: 2560 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: CRYONICS: Reply to Mike Darwin Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 00:03:34 -0800 (PST) Hi everyone! I will explain here just why I think we won't get "a lot of flak" from either the general population or the government. But the first thing to do here is to look at just what level of conflict and violence really constitutes "a lot". I do think this knowing quite well that Mike was hauled off to jail in the Dora Kent conflict, and that many cryonicists do feel (and understandably so!) very strongly about failure of any suspension of their relatives. It may surprize many cryonicists to hear that at one time, when I was just out of college, I was involved in civil rights activities. These were not the versions of "civil rights" we see today, but "civil rights" much closer to how libertarians would understand them. It has not been very long, historical- ly, since blacks were very thoroughly discriminated against. This discriminationinvolved a lot more than denial of the right to vote. They were effectively denied even the right to speak throughout a large part of the US. All that is now so much in the past that even some cryonicists may not remember that time. I bring it up because if we want to discuss discrimination and oppression, and all the things that it involves, we DO need some kind of base mark. Do I believe that cryonicists will ever be subject even to an ATTEMPT to treat them in this way? No, I do not. Do I think that the general public will ever go on witchhunts for cryonicists? Try to lynch cryonicists? No, I do not. Hold show trials to condemn large numbers of cryonicists to imprisonment in labor camps? Again, I do not. Please understand that when I say these things I do NOT mean to minimize the wrongs done to Alcor or to Mike himself. These were significant wrongs, and deserved to be fought as strongly as we can. But there are other things that should be remembered about the Dora Kent battle. The first one, which I noticed myself, is that most people where I lived did NOT stand up and cheer the Coroners. I didn't hear a lot of "Right on! Give those cryonicists what they deserve! ... etc". Sure, a lot of people were interested, but it did not evoke strong feelings of one kind or another. And basically, Alcor finally won; we also note that Mike Darwin did not remain for a long time in jail, nor was he surreptitiously murdered on one excuse or another while he was in the hands of the local police. (As I recall, the real police were somewhat at a loss, because the Coroners did not follow normal police procedure). The second point, which I think we really should remember, is that Alcor won. If feelings against cryonicists had been as strong as those against some other groups in history, Alcor would not even have been able to find a lawyer willing to undertake Alcor's defense. Those lawyers in sympathy would have decided to keep their sympathies to themselves, while the defense lawyers chosen by the state would happily cooperate with the prosecution. Another thing that did NOT happen was a declared negative attitude by the AMA and doctors generally. Yes, Alcor by its activities is saying some strong things about the medical profession, but not about doctors individually. Moreover, Kevorkian's activities suggest that there may even be some wistful sympathy towards people who try to really deal with the problems of death. I say "wistful" intentionally: it's not that the sympathy goes very far, but that the doctors who feel it might wish things were otherwise, but feel that they could do nothing. Do I think that everything from now on will be peaceful and wonderful? No. On the contrary, I wouldn't be at all surprized to see a few more struggles like the Dora Kent one. Given that cryonicists are willing to support their society and cryonics in general, and given that we make plans to save patients in the event of the kind of attack the Dora Kent case produced (notice that it was not the attempt of a crazed mob to destroy all patients. It was the attempt of a few bureaucrats to obtain one patient), then I think we have every chance of persisting. And even winning. And even though the Riverside authorities have decreed that Alcor cannot conduct research in its present facility, I believe that the main reason that decree has not been vigorously fought is simply that Alcor aims to move from that facility regardless. (For that matter, I also note that the nearby cryonics facilities inhabited by Mike Darwin and his friends are not subject to that research prohibition). Often quite massive changes in society do not require great social turmoil and conflict. The advances in medicine and computers give instances of these. Even the industrial revolution did not cause a revolution in England, where it began, or in the United States, which went through similar changes soon after... though certainly, in some countries, the adjustments needed were to great and society DID go through a violent revolution. I do not mean by this, of course, that there were not significant numbers of people who were not happy by what was happening. We remember the Luddites. But compared to other countries that had a REAL revolution, the conflict was much milder, and the outcome was quite predictable. For that matter, even civil rights in the US took place with relatively mild conflicts: there were no serious guerilla movements, for instance. It seems to me that the public attitude to cryonics (and ultimately it is the public attitude, rather than the attitude of a few bureaucrats, which will prevail) is NOT hostile. It is more schizophrenic than that: I think most people, seeing our activities, feel torn between two thoughts: Oh how terrible it would be if immortality really came! Oh, how wonderful it would be if immortality really came! And with these attitudes they continue to be paralysed between them. That is what all the TV talk shows and radio shows tell me, in particular. To actually ACT AGAINST people who are trying to make this thing happen is to cut off a possibility that many people dream about in their secret hearts, secret even to themselves --- who would dream of such a thing? Yet to ACT FOR it still remains a choice that few people can bring themselves to make, it is so bizarre and outrageous. And so the response is paralysis rather than antagonism. I do not mean by this at all to denigrate or minimize the troubles we may have in future with bureaucrats and other such people. And certainly, some bureaucrats have great power. The real issue, it seems to me, is that of whether this battle will be fought out mainly on the field of science and technology, or on the political field of violence, subversion, mob action, and murder. I do not believe that it will be the latter. Certainly we must keep an eye out for the bureaucrats. But our main enemy is not the rest of the human race, but death itself. Long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=2560