X-Message-Number: 25613 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:42:33 -0500 From: Francois <> Subject: Final reply to Richard about duplicates >Don't be absurd. Do you reject all of science and the scientific >method? Of course I don't. I'm just saying that you must carefully determine what kind of instrument will in fact measure the thing you want to measure. If you want to ascertain that the apple in the morning is the one you put on the table the previous evening, then you need an instrument that will keep a continuous vigil, not one who takes snapshots every 30th of a second and ignores what goes on between those moments. And again, this was said more in jest than anything else. >Of course both Francois A and Francois B will think they are the >original. Did you think I was confused on that issue? No, I didn't think that. Nor am I confused on what you mean when you ask if I see the sun or the moon when I wake up. If Francois A is the original who was duplicated, then I see the sun. If Francois B is the original, then I see the moon, and if both are copies of an original who was destructively duplicated, then I see neither because I'm dead. Does what I have just said mean that I have suddenly changed my mind and now agree with you? No, because all three will sincerely view themselves as Francois with the same unshakable degree of conviction that I'm experiencing right now. Francois A and Francois B don't just superficially think they are the original, like they would if they had simply been brainwashed into it. They have all the memories, the feelings, the dreams, the wants, the needs, the very sense of identity, all of what makes up the person called Francois. Nobody could tell them apart if they weren't told which is which. A telepath reading their minds could not tell them apart if he wasn't told which is which. Francois, Francois A and Francois B themselves couldn't tell each other apart if the duplication was done while Francois was unconcious and if they weren't told which is which. Finally and most importantly, their sense of having existed prior to the time of duplication will also be the same, even though it will will only be physically true for the original Francois. That degree of similarity, ascertained both from objective external points of view and subjective internal ones perfectly satisfies me concerning my continued survival through duplication. Understand that I'm not suggesting the three Francois share their counciousness, that a single center of awareness is somehow looking at the world throught all three pairs of eyes at the same time. Each Francois is independently looking at the world from his own center of awareness, just like I'm looking at it from my center of awareness and you are looking at it from yours. But just like destroying a specific copy of a book does not destroy 'the book', as long as at least one physical instance of Francois exists, be it the original one or any of his copies, then 'Francois' survives. That being said, I feel there is really no point in continuing the debate. I understand very well your position, I just don't agree with it. You apparently understand my position as well, you just don't agree with it either. This indicates that neither of us has the empirical evidence needed to decide which of the two positions is the correct one, or even if either is correct. How could we since nobody has ever been duplicated? The needed experiments have not been conducted yet. They will have to await the invention of much better technology than what we have now. Francois The Devil fears those who learn more than those who pray Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=25613