X-Message-Number: 26378 From: "John de Rivaz" <> References: <> Subject: Re: Ethics of Immortality Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:12:55 +0100 This refers to a message by David Pizer posted on CryoNet, which can be read here: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=26372 In part it contains >>> GROUP ONE: There exists in our world today, a certain percent, (of the total amount of people on earth), who would like to live longer than the current normal life span (of say 60 to 90 years give or take). GROUP TWO: There are also some people who don't care to live beyond the normal life span. (I am not discussing them here) GROUP THREE: And, there is a 3rd group, those who don't even want to live to the normal limits and they are the ones who are suicidal. (I feel for them, but I am not discussing them at this time). <<< and >>> Further, religions have made the option of trying to obtain eternal life through religion easier to apply for than the option of trying for long life through cryonics. (Even if religions' options are not valid, they are still easier to apply for than cryonics). Therefore, for these reasons and other traditional reasons, at the present time most people have and will choose religion as their vehicle for attempting to obtain eternal life, rather than to choose cryonics. And, in fact that is just what is going on in the world right now. Here is the current score card: Religions: 3 to 4 billion. Cryonics: 1,000 give or take. <<< I think there is also a fourth group: Those that believe the duty of everyone is to take part in the cycle of life and death and that anyone greedy enough to want more life is to be exterminated after an allotted lifespan. The method of extermination is the process of denying research into life extension. This idea has been discussed in some works of science fiction. As to religions, most seem to have the idea that suicide is wrong, although some hope to win the "evolution of religions" by equating virtue with self-sacrifice. Some fail completely, like the Halley's Comet people who all killed themselves thinking they would materialise on a space ship alongside the comet. Others compete on the basis that a few suicidal fanatics may exterminate a greater number of a competing religion. I would refer any relatively new readers to this group to Thomas Donaldson's article that has appeared on several websites, "Jesus was an Immortalist". One such manifestation is http://www.cryonics-europe.org/jesus.htm Also on this site there are several other articles on religion on http://www.cryonics-europe.org/religion0.htm It would seem that seeking some form of immortality is a purpose of religions, and irrational concepts such as unreasoning faith are merely (highly successful) tools of survival of particular religions. An individual could in the past get an idea across to fellows of the same religion by somehow convincing them that their deity has communicated his ides to him personally. Most people who claim communication with god are now regarded as needing medical treatment, but those who claimed such communication in the past were instead venerated. What seems irrational is that people today still venerate such past prophets or saviours, simply because the supposed communication occurred in the past. Again there has been much fiction written as to what would happen if Jesus re-appeared. Would anyone believe him? Even if he did the usual round of tricks like turning water into wine or curing people of fatal diseases, alternative explanations would abound. No doubt many would even prefer to consider that he was a being from an advanced space faring civilisation trying to trick people, especially if asked to accept a message which was contradictory to established religions beliefs. There were undoubtedly events in the past that had a profound effect on mankind, and yes they did surround people who believed that they were god or they were in communication with god. They have resulted in "holy books" which people analyse and venerate seeking truth. This produces a huge body of scholarship. Jesus the man is long gone. Jesus the meme lives on and will live on as long as humanity does as a species. That meme can grown and "think" by means of all this scholarship. If someone could somehow get into that body of scholarship the ideas from "Jesus was an Immortalist" and similar essays, then just maybe the ethical dilemmas that David Pizer points could be used in favour of the cryonics concept. -- Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and more Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=26378