X-Message-Number: 26525
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:35:51 +0200
From: Eivind Berge <>
Subject: A couple of points for Mr. Pizer, with no name-calling this time

Jesus says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John
15:16). I am talking about predestination, and submit that at least as
far as the doctrine of election goes, Pizer's logic is flawed because
any guarantee on the part of churches is a moot point. Whether one
joins the church and follows their instructions will have no bearing
on whether one's soul is saved. The elect will indeed tend to be the
most religious and devout ones, but that is because they are
conscripted by God in the first place and not because they were
attracted by a promise of eternal life. So Pizer has no case against
the Calvinists and others who believe in election. This still leaves
out plenty of preachers whose interpretations differ--though the Bible
is pretty clear on God's omniscience--but at least I have identified a
potential flaw in one of your basic premises.

Secondly, your analogy of dinner--that it's unreasonable to stop to
get food on the way home from work because there will be dinner ready
when you get home--seems weak to me. I think you overestimate the
desire to get to heaven in a hurry. I don't know any Christians who
would contemplate suicide in order to get to heaven quickly if only it
weren't against the rules. They certainly tend to hang on to their
lives as long as they can, accepting all kinds of heroic medical
treatments. They know what they have but can know very little about
what heaven is like--and they admit that--and any failure to accept
cryonics probably has little to do with being in a hurry to get out of
here.

Eivind Berge

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