X-Message-Number: 26526 From: "Beth Bailey" <> Subject: To David Pizer, Thank you for responding to my previous post on Cryonet. Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:33:10 -0400 BETH SAID: There is nothing to be gained and everything to lose by taking on religion. PIZER: If that is how you feel then I must conclude that you did not read my argument that concludes that millions of possibly billions of people may be missing out on extened life or virtual physical immortality because of a correctable mistake religions are making. Religions may be causing the very thing to happen they are trying to prevent. I don't see where fixing that problem falls under "nothing to gain." Can you explain your reasoning? My reasoning: I believe your ultimate goal is to make cryonics socially acceptable and encourage millions of people to sign up. This is highly commendable and worthy of all the positive efforts cryonicists can apply to make this a reality. I also agree with you that religion preaches and teaches that dying is positive. I only disagree with you on one thing, and that is your proposed methodology of using a lawsuit to make your point. This is where I believe you have "nothing to gain," because when people of faith are challenged by science / modernity, they respond first, by praying to their deity of choice more fervently, and when that doesn't achieve the desired effect, they organize and attack; evolution, family planning, stem cell research, working mothers, gay rights, etc. Some religious people believe their internal thoughts are the "voice of God." Therefore, they know what God wants for them and for you. If you file a lawsuit that is critical of the religious belief system they hold dear, the religious belief system that gives comfort, security and meaning to their lives, they will attack you en masse. The attack might be personal, just directed at David Pizer, but the attack might also be directed against cryonics as a whole. While Alcor and CI can put people in biostasis, no one has been revived. For this reason, anyone with an agenda can disparage (junk science, selfish people, afraid of death...) and try to legislate against cryonics. BETH: Religion is based on dogma and indoctrination. Critical thinking is not encouraged... PIZER: What has this to do with the horrible mistake they are making? My response: While both you and I believe they are making a horrible mistake that will consign them to oblivion, most people do not have the information that would enable them to understand why their decision could be a mistake, or the motivation to correct it. While Alcor and CI can put people in biostasis, no one has been revived. For this reason, what can you tell potential members? "Biostasis is the second worst thing that can happen to you." If your remains are buried or cremated, you have no chance of being revived, but if you are rapidly placed in biostasis while your mind remains intact, science and technology may progress to the point where your body can be revived and healed or replaced. For most people this is the realm of science fiction. On the other hand, Religion has been sending people to Valhalla, the Underworld, Heaven and paradise for thousands of years. Grandma, Grandpa, Mom, Dad and Aunt Tilly are all waiting there for that big happy family reunion in the sky. No religion is going to give up the mythology that makes death bearable for someone who just lost a beloved family member. BETH: Cryonicists tend to be more intelligent than average. PIZER: I used to think that until some some of the ranting out of pure fear and devoid of any logic in response to my inquiry for advice on my possible proposal to try to straighten out the problem. My response: The internet gives people a medium where they can express their opinions in an anonymous format. This makes people feel free to rant. I myself enjoy a good rant every now and again. I also share the fear of other Cryonet readers and responders that a lawsuit, even one filed with the best of intentions might cause a backlash against cryonics. This could come in the form of an injunction that forces Alcor and CI to stop performing suspensions, while legislation is drafted to put the companies out of business. BETH: As a cryonicist, you are adept in critical thinking and you recognize that science and technology will continue to transform society, for good or for ill. PIZER: In my case it is not "as a cryonicist." Not from what I've seen from some on this forum lately. My response (caution- more detail than you probably want to know): When I reached puberty, one of my relatives slapped my face to drive out the evil spirits who initiated my monthly "curse." When I was 28 my parents disowned me because I married someone of a different religion. Last summer, in 90 degree-plus weather, I was very sad to see scores of women in London, England veiled in black from head to toe with only a tiny eye-slit to see out of. My return flight was delayed for several hours and extra security measures were necessary because of a terrorist threat. Last Sunday, when I went to see the Mets lose again, every woman's purse was searched and our bodies "wanded." It breaks my heart that in the year 2005 humans remain as superstitious and eager to kill each other as when our ancestors first came down from the trees. I sometimes think that humans are still barbarians with only a very thin veneer of civilization. I have hope for humanity, though, when I find people such as David Pizer who believe in the concept of human immortality and the science that it will take to get us there. I simply don't want any cryonics advocate to scare off potential members by initiating an action that can be perceived as threatening by "regular people." For many people, religion defines their identity on such a basic, intrinsic level that if you challenge their beliefs, they go absolutely nuts. PIZER: I think you missed the point I am trying to make. As long as the problem and conclusion my argument identifies continues to exist, millions or billions of people are losing their chance to avoid death. There is no more important battle for mankind. Can you name something more important than fixing a mistake that leads people to being dead forever when there might have been a chance to correct this? My response: I agree with you 100%, "There is no more important battle for mankind." Our disagreement is only about how to WIN that battle. I think a lawsuit critical of people's socially sanctioned belief system will turn them against cryonics because it subconsiously threatens the core concepts that define them as a person. In closing, just as Benjamin Franklin was the newly founded America's Ambassador to France, current cryonicists are ambassadors who may be the first introduction many people have to Cryonics. I want that introduction to be so positive, so inclusive and so encouraging that a deluge of people sign up. Lastly, if at this point you are still planning your suit, just please promise me that before you do it you will rent and watch "Miracle on 34th Street" (The original black and white version starring Natalie Wood) at least 6 times. Kind regards, Beth Bailey Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=26526