X-Message-Number: 26579 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "D. den Otter" <> Subject: Re: Mike Perry's idea (evolved) Mike Perry's wrote: <<To return now to the possibility of a low-cost alternative to cryonics: I have looked into it, and consulted with a mortician in my area. It appears that a brain could be chemopreserved using formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, or a combination of the two, in a protocol that morticians could apply fairly easily and inexpensively. (And they are flexible about the protocols that would be used, within reasonable limits.) Brains preserved this way could then be stored, again inexpensively, for long periods at 40 degrees F, at an underground storage center. The cost overall (for 100 years' storage) would be in the range of burial and cremation, and far cheaper than cryonic suspension. (Another possibility might be a permafrost or cold-climate burial, say when enough brains had accumulated, which would then be maintenance-free.) In my view that would be much better than nothing, though certainly not up to cryonics standards. I would be very interested in contributing to such an effort. Yet I have to say I would not be too surprised if you didn't have too many takers. It would be seen as too long a shot, like cryonics itself, only worse. Still, I think it would be worth a try, and a few might opt for it who would otherwise be buried or cremated.>> How about the following setup: 1) Instead of morticians you use (local) pathologists, who unlike the former know how (and are authorized) to remove human brains. Costs: unknown, but presumably zero - ~$1,000. It totally depends on the person(s) involved. 2A) Once the brain has been removed it is put into formaldehyde, formalternate (temporary storage only, see http://www.ecu.edu/oehs/HazWaste/formalin.htm )or some other protective fluid, and either chemopreserved on location (hospital) or shipped in a special container to wherever it will be further pocessed. The brain is refrigerated (though obviously not frozen) during the fixation period to further slow down decay. When fixation is complete it is frozen in a regular freezer (-20*C or so). Cost of chemicals: not much, about $25 per liter, see for example http://swehsc.pharmacy.arizona.edu/ exppath/resources/pdf/Formaldehyde.pdf . Presumably only a few liters would be required for a brain, maybe even less. **ALTERNATIVELY** 2B) The brain is fixed using some kind of non-toxic, non-flammable preservative, or not fixed at all and simply straight-frozen in a household freezer. 3) The chemopreserved or straight frozen brain is placed into a small freeze dryer like this one: http://www.freezedry.com/t_models.htm (costs about 12K). If formaldehyde or some other flammable / toxic fixative is used, a modified freeze drying unit may be required; something like the ones used for plastination (see http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/s10.html ). 4) The brain is dehydrated in the freeze dryer for about 30 days (see http://www.freezedry.com/r_process.htm for more detailed info). According to the manufacturer this should cost about $10-30, i.e. almost nothing. 5) Once fully dehydrated, the brain is placed in either a stainless or plastic container along with some dessicant. It could also be encased in a block of (polyester) resin. 6) The container or block is placed in a household freezer (a larger model should be able to accomodate at least half a dozen or so brains). Costs: say, $3-500 for the freezer (once every 10 years or so), and $50 for electricity/year. These are fairly conservative figures. The storage freezer and the rest of the equipment could be housed in a cryonics org's building, or in a separate facility. In either case, not much space would be needed; one medium sized room, or two smaller ones, should suffice. I.e. you don't need a whole facility for this sort of thing. **ALTERNATIVELY** After removal the brain is treated as described at: http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/s10.html http://www.koerperwelten.de/en/pages/plastination.asp (The Silicone S-10 Standard Procedure would be used, after which the brain would be put into an airtight container and stored in a freezer. Costs: variable, but used equipment should be in roughly the same price range as the freeze dryer). Note: certain new procedures could make the plastination process both cheaper and easier, see for example http://cor-labs.com/process.htm ---- David Pizer wrote: <<How would the morticians proceed from a business stand point? Are they set up to do one now?>> As mentioned above, pathologists would probably be a better choice. Local volunteers could also be an option (brain removal has to be done carefully, but rocket science it ain't). Perhaps local cryonics groups, if available, would be willing to help out. It would certainly make sense to integrate low budget preservation with standard cryonics, at least on a local level. <<How much would it cost?>> It depends, on a lot of things. But 15-20K should be more than enough for all the equipment, and brains should be (significantly?) easier and cheaper to transport than whole bodies. <<How would the patient get his brain to them?>> The brain would either be removed in a/the local hospital or local combined cryonics/low budget 'facility'. <<Where is the underground facility the brains would be stored in?>> It would probably be better to store the brain containers in freezers at one of the cryonics facilities, or some small dedicated facility. Ideally there would be at least 2; one in Europe, and one in the US. But storage at either Alcor or CI (SA, ACS?) would be an excellent temporary solution, as far as I'm concerned (of course, the CI/Alcor/SA/ACS folks might beg to differ...) <<How much would that cost?>> Electricity about $50 a year. Rent, if any, depends on the location, space used etc. Ideally one of the cryo orgs would donate free or cheap temporary storage space (i.e. a couple of square meters for the freezer(s)). <<Who would store the brains?>> See above. For the time being at least, preferably a cryo org (could be on a subcontract basis or whatever). <<How do you want to contribute to this effort? Money? Time? Set up the company that does this? Run the company that does this?>> I don't have much money at the moment, but I'd certainly like to help set something up. Maybe, once a specific protocol has been selected, some kind of fundraiser could be organized? After all, 'universally affordable' suspension is a noble -and overdue- cause if there ever was one. <<Why do you think there would not be many takers for this much-less costly option?>> Well, as a certain famous guy once said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." BUT... there should be at least *some* takers as this cheap alternative will be available to those who need it most: the terminally ill and the elderly of modest means. The freshly deceased, even. No thinking ahead or fancy financial planning necessary; if you can afford a modest burial, you can afford a (long) shot at immortality. Never again will cryonics organization have to turn away desperate last minute cases; just redirect them to CheapFreeze.com! (yes, that's a joke, but permanent annihilation is no laughing matter). Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=26579