X-Message-Number: 26670
From: "David Pizer" <>
Subject: Religions
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:28:09 -0700

Reply to: marta sandberg



MARTA:  I have been off the internet for the last month and I am only starting 
to go 
through the backlog of messages, but the argument of religion has upset me 
so badly that I want to respond even if the topic have disappeared off the 

radar.  Please, do not continue the attacks on religion and people who hold 
faiths.

It is ill-mannered.  There is no way anyone can use words like  dogma ,  
indoctrination  and 
 delusion  to describe a persons faith without intending to be rude.
It is also ill-informed.



DAVID:  I have decided not to file any suit against religons.  I never did state
any intentions to do that.  I only intended (and only did) discuss what the 
possible reamifications of that might be.


However I would like to reply to your post.  In my opinion, in your post, you do
all the things you accuse others of doing.  You have falsely twisted what was 
clearly stated as a discussion into an "attack."  You have rudely and falsely 
made claims of *intended* rudeness.  Although certain words may seem rude to 
you, you make a giant leap to say that the speaker "intended" to be rude.  That 
sounds pretty rude on your part, to me.



MARTA:  Please don t make judgement about people because of YOUR preconceptions
about why they hold a faith.  Faith isn t about living forever.  Most people 
of faith (that I know) are not all that concerned about eternal life, that 
is mainly a faulty perception by people who look at religion from the 
outside.



DAVID:  This shows how wrong you are about why people hold a faith.  All you 
have to do is go to the websites of any of the major religions and you will see 
that they DO state on their websidtes that one of the main reasons they exist is
to help people obtain eternal heavenly life.  So you are also wrong in this 
matter.


MARTA:  When outsiders make sweeping and faulty assumptions about cryonics, we 
tend 
to become indignant.  Surely, we can learn from this.

DAVID:  You haven't.


MARTA:  As I have reasonable high media profile in Australia,  I get a steady 
stream 
of letters from members of minor religious groups, such a Jehovah s Witness. 
  They are always polite and concerned letters and I always answer them 
equally politely by pointing out that I don t think I will live forever even 
if cryonics works   just for a few centuries.  This has lead to several 
(polite) letter exchanges and one good lasting friendship.  In the end, we 
agree that there are some topics we will disagree on, but that does not have 
to stop us from otherwise enjoying each others company. In fact, I find it 
easier to talk about cryonics   and death in general   with people of faith, 
than with atheist.  From these exchanges I have learnt a deep respect for 
people who hold a deep faith.  On the whole they tend to be generous and 
involved people.

Religion is not the main obstacle for the spread of religion.


DAVID:  The objective evidence on the websites or religions, their sermons, and 
writings show that you couldn't be more wrong. 

And your sentence above shows me that you did not even read the argument that I 
posted (that you are complaining about).  That argument shows that religion may 
be the main obstacle to the spread of cryonics.  



MARTA:  Think about it.  There are only about a thousand cryonicists world wide.
There are many, many millions of atheists.  They are not queuing to sign up. 
  Obviously religion isn t the biggest hurdle to accepting cryonics.



DAVID:  *You* think about it.  If religion is wrong in their guarantees, and if 
there is no Heaven, and if the promise of Heaven by religions is causing people 
not to sign up for cryonics, and if it turns out that cryonics works and leads 
to virtual phyiscal immortality,  then the only conclusion can be that religion 
is making a terrible mistake and costing many people their (As Ettinger put it) 
Prospect of Immortality.


You are wrong in saying that an attempt to discuss causing religions to only 
state their beliefs as beliefs is an "attack."  That would be like saying that a
previous attempt to cause religions to stop the burning people alive and act 
more humanly was an attack on the religion.

MARTA:  I wish you a long life,


DAVID:  I doubt that you really do, and what about all the people that may be 
dead forever because of your position?  Seems like you don't care about them.




Marta

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