X-Message-Number: 28420
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:25:01 -0600
From: "Anthony ." <>
Subject: genies and nenes

John K Clark debates memes with me here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1157922206/genies+and+nenes

I address Henson on memes below:

> Message #28415
> Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:05:34 -0400
> From: Keith Henson <>
> Subject: Re: Genes and Memes [egg plant]

> I agree with you, but take it a little further.  Communicating minds
> (generally human ones) constitute the environment for memes.

Do you mean linguistic commuication? written commuication? kinesic
("body-language") communication? I'll deal with these question below
so that you don't have to:

>  When you use "meme" instead of "idea" you are emphasizing the
> replication aspect.

This relates to my question to John K Eggmeme: "How do ideas "reproduce"?"

Memes are supposed to reproduce like genes - through copying
themselves. Metaphors like this are important to the meme concept:

Genes replicate through asexual division or sexual reproduction. Sex
is faciliated by sex organs and by the behaviours of the whole
organism - some of these sexual behaviours are learned from the animal
culture through immitation. Captive animals that have never had a
chance to mimic sex have trouble with intromission. So - genes that
exist as part of a sexual organism require bodily interaction - and in
some cases - cultural imitation. Genes do not simply replicate, they
require bodies, sexual organs, and mimicry.

Memes also do not replicate out of thin air - they exist through
language, carving, painting, writing, music... All of these media
(also themselves memes) propogate memes which are recreated through
human communication and record (languages, carving, painting, etc.),
and human invention or adaptation of:
1. an institution,
2. types of record: like a DVD instead of a printing press,
3. artifact: like a building or technology/tool
- and these are also memes.

The thing is, language, carving, etc. ultimately have a genetic origin
because these concepts of record and communication arise from the body
- the body is the ultimate locus of meaning and conceptualisation.
Language comes from the mouth, from the recognition of analogical
relationships, from learning the words of others, building the
foundations of language in the brain into a culture-specific mental
tool. Language is not a meme, it is a physiological effect of genetic
drift, it is inherent in the physical possibilities of our species. We
created the system of language as a part of our overall involvement
with semiotics - especially kinesics because as a species we'd rely on
our skill to interpret and predict the movements of others. (Consider
the importance of, say, physical size within a primate group, and how
that can structure social interaction - size is one of many examples
that describe physical animation and physical form, influencing our
kinesic communications.)

The other above media and symbol-systems (carving, writing, etc) came
to evolve through the use of the body as a conceptual template too.

What should be clear is that we are not dealing with memes, but with
levels of conceptual abstraction which are based in corporeal
experiences - which is itself a genetic construct (might I remind you
that bodies were originally the artifacts of bacteria that organised
so as to provide a better environment for survival? Our ancestors were
the rickety shelters of bacteria - I suppose the bacteria were
"infected" with a building-meme?)

> Computer viruses are the third member of the larger category
> "replicators."  And agree the essence of all three is information
> independent of the media the information is coded in.

How is the information independent of the media the information is coded in?

Keith - if you want to keep this up, I suggest doing it here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1157922206/genies+and+nenes

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