X-Message-Number: 3009 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 13:06:10 From: Subject: CRYONICS Libertarian Mindsets In message #3003 (No Subject) Ron Selkovitch writes: >Perhaps Cryonics would be better served if there wasn't the strong >implication that to be a Cryonicist one must also be a Libertarian >(and probably a member of the NRA as well) If you really mean that there is an implication that one "must" be a libertarian in order to be a cryonicist, I don't see it. I think there is a strong correlation between libertarian leanings and immortalist leanings among cryonicists, and that there are more cryonicists of libertarian persuasion than of any other political/philosophical bent. Naturally, you will thus hear more libertarian viewpoints expressed by cryonicists than statist/socialist viewpoints. But perhaps you just meant that people "infer" this from the things we say. (I.e., we express a lot of libertarian viewpoints, and they draw the conclusion that if you ain't a libertarian, you ain't a true- blue cryonicist.) This is probably true. I guess then you're saying that toning down our libertarianism might serve cryonics better in the long run. I disagree here. I think cryonics is, of necessity, heavily intertwined with the issue of freedom. Possibly the greatest potential and actual inhibitor to the success of cryonics is the amount of government involvement in health care issues. It's hard to get radical medicine (which cryonics certainly is) in a socialist society. The more people there are who think of medicine and health care as issues over which people should have complete individual sovereignty, the more likely something like cryonics is to succeed. This means to me that, in order to give cryonics the best shot at working, we need to stimulate the evolution of a society in which such sovereignty (read: freedom) is greatly desired by all. Cryonics is not the only thing I (and most people in cryonics) are working for. We want to make it to the future because we want the promise that that future holds. If we want not just cryonics to succeed in a timely manner, but also other radical endeavors such as nanotechnology, space exploration, artificial intelligence research, etc., then we want to live in a society that encourages freedom, diversity, individual risk taking, and individual responsibility. But this doesn't mean that I think cryonics organizations should take up the Libertarian Banner, either. I think *individuals* should remain free to say and do whatever they feel, and that the actual organizations should emphasize libertarian notions when appropriate. (I'll leave the definition of "appropriate" for another conversation.) >Has anyone considered that it may be the Libertarian mind set that >makes it so difficult to organize Cryonic Societies successfully. Yes. You are right on the mark. Cryonics selects for bold individualism, as does libertarianism. You simply won't be a cryonicist if you are not in some ways accustomed to valuing your own opinions and ideas above those of the majority around you. To choose to associate yourself with cryonics is to embark on an endeavor which plainly screams, "We don't care what is NATURAL! We don't care about the way IT'S ALWAYS BEEN! And we don't care that you don't agree with us! We're going to freeze ourselves anyway." Ascribing to the notion of laissez faire capitalism as the best means of social organization requires a similar ability to go against the grain. Cryonics clearly selects (evolutionarily speaking) for libertarian, individualist mindsets. And naturally, when you toss a whole bunch of these rugged individualists into a life boat together, and shake the lifeboat around a little bit, you are going to see fireworks like you've never seen before. ("I don't care that you think you know that you are right. I KNOW THAT I AM RIGHT! This FACT excludes the possibility that YOU are right, since we hold opposing views! Therefore, you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Why can't you just admit how WRONG you are and get it over with so we can move on to talking about my idea which is so obviously RIGHT?!?!") But, before we go on and condemn this individualism for its tendency to lead to disagreement, politics, and schism, let's remember that without such individualism there would be no cryonics going on at all. It has a few drawbacks (sort of) but it also has many necessary advantages. Right now, it takes veritable pioneers to get anything done in cryonics. Later, this may not be the case. But without these kinds of pioneers, there might not be a single patient still frozen today, let alone 50 years from now. >With no intention to offend anyone > >Ron S. No offense taken. Forward in all directions! Derek Ryan Membership Administrator Alcor Life Extension Foundation Ph. # 602-922-9013 Email: Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3009