X-Message-Number: 3009
Date:  Mon, 22 Aug 94 13:06:10 
From: 
Subject: CRYONICS Libertarian Mindsets

In message #3003 (No Subject) Ron Selkovitch writes:

>Perhaps Cryonics would be better served if there wasn't the strong
>implication that to be a Cryonicist one must also be a Libertarian 
>(and probably a member of the NRA as well)

If you really mean that there is an implication that one "must" be a 
libertarian in order to be a cryonicist, I don't see it.  I think there is 
a strong correlation between libertarian leanings and immortalist 
leanings among cryonicists, and that there are more cryonicists of 
libertarian persuasion than of any other political/philosophical bent. 
 
Naturally, you will thus hear more libertarian viewpoints expressed 
by cryonicists than statist/socialist viewpoints.

But perhaps you just meant that people "infer" this from the things 
we say.  (I.e., we express a lot of libertarian viewpoints, and they 
draw the conclusion that if you ain't a libertarian, you ain't a true-
blue cryonicist.)  This is probably true.  I guess then you're saying 
that toning down our libertarianism might serve cryonics better in 
the long run.

I disagree here.  I think cryonics is, of necessity, heavily intertwined 
with the issue of freedom.  Possibly the greatest potential and
actual inhibitor to the success of cryonics is the amount of 
government involvement in health care issues.  It's hard to get 
radical medicine (which cryonics certainly is) in a socialist society.  
The more people there are who think of medicine and health care as 
issues over which people should have complete individual 
sovereignty, the more likely something like cryonics is to succeed.

This means to me that, in order to give cryonics the best shot at 
working, we need to stimulate the evolution of a society in which 
such sovereignty (read: freedom) is greatly desired by all.

Cryonics is not the only thing I (and most people in cryonics) are 
working for.  We want to make it to the future because we want the 
promise that that future holds.  If we want not just cryonics to 
succeed in a timely manner, but also other radical endeavors such as 
nanotechnology, space exploration, artificial intelligence research, 
etc., then we want to live in a society that encourages freedom, 
diversity, individual risk taking, and individual responsibility.  

But this doesn't mean that I think cryonics organizations should 
take up the Libertarian Banner, either.  I think *individuals* should 
remain free to say and do whatever they feel, and that the actual 
organizations should emphasize libertarian notions when 
appropriate.

(I'll leave the definition of "appropriate" for another conversation.)

>Has anyone considered that it may be the Libertarian mind set that 
>makes it so difficult to organize Cryonic Societies successfully.

Yes.  You are right on the mark.  Cryonics selects for bold 
individualism, as does libertarianism.  You simply won't be a 
cryonicist if you are not in some ways accustomed to valuing your 
own opinions and ideas above those of the majority around you.  
To choose to associate yourself with cryonics is to embark on an 
endeavor which plainly screams, "We don't care what is 
NATURAL!  We don't care about the way IT'S ALWAYS BEEN!  
And we don't care that you don't agree with us!  We're going to 
freeze ourselves anyway."  Ascribing to the notion of laissez faire 
capitalism as the best means of social organization requires a similar 
ability to go against the grain.

Cryonics clearly selects (evolutionarily speaking) for libertarian, 
individualist mindsets.  And naturally, when you toss a whole bunch 
of these rugged individualists into a life boat together, and shake 
the lifeboat around a little bit, you are going to see fireworks like 
you've never seen before.  

("I don't care that you think you know that you are right.  I KNOW 
THAT I AM RIGHT!  This FACT excludes the possibility that 
YOU are right, since we hold opposing views!  Therefore, you are 
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!  Why can't you just admit how 
WRONG you are and get it over with so we can move on to talking 
about my idea which is so obviously RIGHT?!?!")

But, before we go on and condemn this individualism for its 
tendency to lead to disagreement, politics, and schism, let's 
remember that without such individualism there would be no 
cryonics going on at all.  It has a few drawbacks (sort of) but it also 
has many necessary advantages.  Right now, it takes veritable 
pioneers to get anything done in cryonics.  Later, this may not be 
the case.  

But without these kinds of pioneers, there might not be a single 
patient still frozen today, let alone 50 years from now.

>With no intention to offend anyone
>
>Ron S.

No offense taken.

Forward in all directions!

Derek Ryan
Membership Administrator
Alcor Life Extension Foundation
Ph. # 602-922-9013
Email: 

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