X-Message-Number: 30781
From: 
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:16:44 EDT
Subject: self interest and cryonics

DSS misses the point, and so do many others.
 
The point is not whether we have evolved for self  sacrifice--as obviously, 
to some extent, we have, along with other mammals at  least--but whether our 
conscious decisions OUGHT to be made in our own (probable  long term) interest.
 
We ordinarily make choices based on what we want or think we  want, usually 
with trade-offs or compromises between conflicting or partly  conflicting 

goals. In most cases we give little or no conscious thought to  analysis of our

ostensible wants or needs. In particular, in many cases the bad  decision is 
made 
to follow the herd or follow tradition or indoctrination,  at the expense of 
your actual potential welfare.
 
DSS himself thinks religion is a major impediment to cryonics.  Well, 

religion is one of the tendencies rooted in evolution, so clearly, at  least in 
this 
instance, he thinks we should not submit to our indoctrination or  idealism or 
outmoded heritage. My position is that, if we explicitly  acknowledge the 

exclusive validity of self interest--even though we are not yet  in a position 
to 
be always confident where our self interest lies--then we are  more likely to 
question previous assumptions and be suspicious of societal  pressures.       
                         
 
I don't agree that religion is a major factor in resistance to cryonics,  for 
reasons I have spelled out several times. I do agree that it would be  

helpful if cryonics organizations could offer some of the group satisfactions  
that 
some other associations and movements do, but I'm not aware of any  effective 
means to this end, beyond what we are already doing. DSS as I recall  wants to 
raise and spend millions on a public relations campaign, a suggestion  of 
little if any apparent value. 
 
What is within reach of the individual, what is feasible, is to question  
your indoctrination and previous assumptions, and face the fact that what you  

ought to want is what is most likely to benefit you, directly or indirectly, and
 refuse to make any sacrifices except the sacrifice of one interest for 
another  of higher priority.
 
Robert Ettinger

 
Message  #30775
From: David Stodolsky  <>
Subject: Re: self  interest
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:16:28 +0200
References:  <>

On 26 May 2008, at 17:08,   wrote:

> It is logically and physically impossible  to
> be motivated by anything other than self  interest.
>

> Failure to understand this is one of the major  psychological  
> obstacles  to
> cryonics.

Within  psychology, certainly social psychology, the recognition of the  
group  as an independent entity, that is, as an emergent property of  
the  assembly of individuals, has always been recognized. The idea that   
group behavior is just the sum of individuals' behavior has repeatedly   
proven to be inadequate.

In evolutionary theory, there was an attempt  in the 1970-80s to  
explain away group evolution via kinship (shared  genes). This has also  
been shown to be inadequate. Now evolution is  thought to occur on the  
cellular, bodily, group, and ecosystem levels.  In the book "Unto  
Others", the example of a worm, which sacrifices its  life for the good  
of its fellows, is given. The above argument is that  the human, by  
definition, is not capable of such  behavior.

Within economic theory, particularly behavioral- and  neuro-economics,  
the realization that the traditional 'economic man',  motivated only by  
self interest, is no longer a tenable model is  becoming dominant. Now  
we can see that there are brain structures that  respond to inequity  
and to the 'common good'. These are independent  sources of reward and  
motivation, beyond self  interest:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080428094212.htm

>  the research, funded by the Economic and Social Research Council,  
>  shows that most of us will act in the best interest of our team --   
> often at our own expense.

Definitions are arbitrary. However, if  you define 'self interest' such  
that it permits people to act in a way  that is detrimental to them, it  
isn't particularly useful. If you  define it any other way, then you  
are in contradiction to the  behavioral and brain data. The continued  
retaining of this view is  equivalent to a religious conviction, at  
this point. It is the  theology of neo-liberalism.

Economism is a major threat to cryonics,  since it promotes a  
distribution of wealth that makes suspension  impossible for the vast  
majority of the world's population, thus  destroying most of the  
potential market. I discuss Economism in an  earlier message.

As I have shown in my reanalysis of the Badger data, the  major  
psychological obstacle to cryonics among individuals is  religious  
belief. Within the cryonics movement, the major  psychological obstacle  
is the individualism, we see expressed here,  that maintains a  
marketing strategy that is ineffective. This  conclusion is supported  
by the research on longevity attitudes and on  attitudes toward  
nanotechnology. All evidence points to a general  mental mechanism that  
makes cultural background (group identity) a  determinant of reactions  
to new  technologies.


dss

David Stodolsky     Skype:  davidstodolsky







**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
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