X-Message-Number: 3110 Date: 11 Sep 94 10:26:48 EDT From: David S Pizer <> Subject: CRYONICS CRYONICS Manana-Style Cryonics From: Dave Pizer I hope this can be my final reply to clarifying my belief on what I interpreted as a slam by Dr. Steve Harris. I replied in the CRYONICS mode because that was where Dr. Harris originally made his "manana-style cryonics" remark and that is the main concern I had with his posting. If anyone wants to discuss this any further I suggest we move to the CRYONICS POLITICS mode. Before I address Dr. Harris's remarks I would like to thank Mike Darwin for his posting and I would like to reply to Charles Platt. I am glad Mike clarified that he is also working on freezing research along with washout research. There has been so much emphasis on the washout part, and the fact that Mike has said several times that he is focusing on marketable improvements in contemporary clinical medicine that I did not realize that Mike was also doing a lot of freezing research. I am going to be very careful about replying to Charles Platt because his statements were so strange to me I am sure I must have misunderstood them. Charles wanted to know if I had "evidence" concerning my statements that tissue/cells change (or damage is done to them) after they drop below the freezing point. Then Charles further said "I really don't think anyone can be certain about this." Is there some doubt that FREEZING causes damage and changes to the cells? Before I get to the central point about the "manana-style cryonics" remark I want to reply to 2 of Dr. Harris's more recent statements. Dr. Harris said something to the effect that thanks to David Pizer and a few of Dave's friends (or perhaps cronies) he could not have a BioPreservation suspension and an Alcor (Arizona) storage. Steve, you should find out which directors have been willing to discuss all these types of issues before you make a statement like this. I am not going to discuss this further and am not going to divulge confidentialities, but please know your current facts before you make statements like that. It is the whole Alcor Board that makes Alcor policy. You may be wrong about where I personally sit on this issue. Also Steve, you hinted that I may have divulged a confidentiality about who is going to freeze Mr. Ettinger in my discussions. I am not going to elaborate further other than to assure you I did not. Now the bottom line: What I objected to in Dr. Steve Harris's posting (at the end) was what I perceived as a cheap shot (at someone, I don't know exactly who) when Steve suggested that someone was doing "manana-style cryonics" in Arizona. Steve and I have both been raised in the Southwest and we both know that "manana-style" in the context he used has a pejorative meaning. The term originates from the Anglos' perception that the Hispanic population is lazy and doesn't care about doing important things on time. The term would imply something like in a situation when a busy Anglo would say to a native Hispanic auto mechanic "When are you going to fix my car?" and the lazy native would say "Manana" (tomorrow) and then take a nap (called a siesta). By using the term "Manana-style cryonics" I get the impression that Steve is implying someone in Arizona could be doing cryonic stabilization faster but is too lazy and thinks it is OK to let a patient lay around while they take a siesta and they will start the stabilization "manana." The only cryonics company doing business in Arizona is Alcor, so if that is true of "someone" in Arizona it would be assumed it was Alcor. Even if the slam was meant against Mr. Ettinger or someone else (and not against Alcor) it is still counterproductive to cryonics in general to make a statement like that. To me it implies a "Holier than Thou" attitude and/or a moral judgement. If we are to increase our chances of survival we should continue to trade useful information on Cryonet. If we slam newcomers they might get discouraged and leave Cryonet. I like to read Mr. Ettinger's comments along with the other people. I have no quarrel with well-meaning, helpful criticism. However, until one of us develops full-blown reversible suspended animation with an ultra safe storage facility and perfection in all the other necessary areas, I think we should try to avoid the moral judgments. Or, maybe I'm being too sensitive about it and it was not worth mentioning? Dave Pizer Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3110