X-Message-Number: 31280 From: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:13:04 EST Subject: Response to Paul Hagen, hopefully not a rant, off topic? In a message dated 12/18/2008 5:00:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: Message #31278 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:59:06 -0600 From: Hagen <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #31270 - #31274 Yes there are some Catholics who read cryonet, myself being one of them. My first thought reading Mr. Hoffman's comments about the Vatican position on stem cell research and the like, was he went well beyond normal discussion. Perhaps there is more to this than simply disagreeing with an organization's opinion. I do not always agree with my wife or children but I do not condemn them because of it. I am currently researching life insurance options for my suspension. I am planning to redo my main large policy and add to it about 35K. I would not want an agent who is openly hostile to my religious lifestyle. Up until now I had not decided if I was going to contact Mr. Hoffman. Paul Hagen Wisconsin Hello, Mr. Hagen, and Fellow Cryonetters and Lurkers, Season's Greetings, and thanks for your posting reprinted above. Given the contentious and divisive nature of religion and discussions of religion, I want to handle this response with as much wisdom and decency as I can muster, while not compromising what I consider to be a reasonable amount of integrity and epistomological methodology. DISTINCTION It may be helpful to draw some important distinctions in this matter. I am not openly hostile to religious people. I am, am remain, unabashedly and openly hostile to primitive belief systems which interfere with the rights of intelligent adults to make good and rational decisions. My wife Dawn and myself square and round dance. Most of the people we actually spend our time with are quite religious, and our favorite folks to hang with happen to be very Catholic. They happen to be very fine human beings. So are the folks at the Salvation Army I will be with tomorrow morning distributing clothing and toys to needy folks for Christmas. So are most religious people. They also happen to be part of religion that has some astoundingly negative aspects and history. A history that includes the Crusades, the Inquisition, burning witches and heretics, and fighting the progress of science at nearly every turn. A tradition that Joe Ratzinger, the current pope, is continuing and expanding. And, yes, we have good reason to fear...and to respectfully disagree...with these positions. It is ridiculous to think that the POLICIES and FATWAS that are promulgated by popes and mullahs should not be criticized just because these are religiously based. As Sam Harris points out with clarity, precision and power much better than I can in "Letter to a Christian Nation," religious statements impacting public policy have gotten a "free pass" from critical dissent in the public square. You are certainly welcome to be Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, Babtist, Atheist, Agnostic, worship Zeus or Satan, and be a cryonicist. I have clients, and friends, in most of these categories. As a cryonicist, I agree with others who have pointed out that we need a "big tent" orientation in this small community. (Sorry for the use of "community" here, Charles Platt..."group" or "movement" is too grandiose for this nascent upstart.) HERE'S THE THEME OF POSTING This doesn't mean that I have to tolerate the abuse of power that accompanies the way religious fervor unquestioningly expresses itself in the world. Or mistake open-mindedness and a tolerant attitude for individual's personal preferences, whiich is a good thing, for cowardly assenting to be bullied by the religious right, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing. In the case of those of us hoping scientific advances will allow us increased healthspan, a VERY bad thing. A potentially deadly thing. Lives are good. You are welcome to personally not use birth control, for example. But don't tell me I can't. Don't pass laws saying my children can't be educated about options. You are welcome to let your blastocysts die the "natural" death most of them do. You are welcome as a Catholic to do what you want individually. But when the Pope's pronouncement about the "rights" of blastocysts encourages the outlawing of scientific research, I have the right to say I vehemently disagree. Or, if you prefer the vernacular, "Bullshit." It is craven and cowardly for those of a rationalist persuasion to let increasingly dangerous pronouncements by religious lunatics to go unanswered. That is why I support the Center for Inquiry. (And, to answer a question posted on cryonet, yes, this is what was called the "CSICOP" and "Center for Democratic and Secular Humanism," headed by Paul Kurtz, based in Amhurst, NY.) I have finally read enough, and thought enough about this, to see that there is a disproportionate "balance" between an incredibly powerful, organized, politically active religious right and what has been called their "cultural competitors." We live in an age of scientific and technological advancement. Yet, paradoxically, we have more people in America (oddly, a higher percentage by far than other developed countries) believing unlikely fairy tales than one would expect. Which would be fine, except the public policy implications arising from unlikely beliefs can and do directly harm millions of lives. Your life. My life. People are welcome to believe what they want, individually. You and I may disagree about whether the moon is made of green cheese, or the inerrency of the bible, or how many virgins we hang with when we die as martyrs. And I can like and respect you a fellow human with different tastes and preferences. Most cryonicists, and yes, I CAN accurately make this statement, "most," --choose an epistemology based on science, evidence, reason, rationality, and a highly expanded world-view. They are antiauthoritarian, and question much of traditional religion. I happily include myself in this group. But my policies pay claims with no regard for your ideology. With reference to your cryonics insurance, I wish you well with whatever you choose to do. Seriously. In Conclusion No doubt there will be anonymous snipers responding to this text in petty and mean spirited ways, implying bad motivations on my part. I am saying in advance that a non-response on my part does not mean this person...or even unperson..is a well adjusted, brilliant, effective, and competent writers of prose...just that they don't merit much time. Sorry. I apologize in advance. I don't have time for flame wars...but I do think people of goodwill can disagree about things that matter. And remain good hearted people. On a personal note, I find that political and ideological rants,--those that are shrill and extreme--are vexations EVEN when I COMPLETELY agree with the point of view being offered. This has been a paradigm epiphany for me...and will hopefully help me be a better human in 2009 and beyond. So, I genuinely hope I have not done that here, or in my earlier posting about the "moral geniuses" at the Vatican. Respectfully Submitted, Rudi Rudi Richard Hoffman CFP CLU ChFC Board Member Financial Planning Association fpafla.com Board Member Salvation Army salvationarmy.org Member Alcor Life Extension Foundation alcor.org Certified Financial Planner(TM) CFP Board of Standards Member Libertarian Party libertarianparty.org Member National Rifle Association nra.org Member World Transhumanist Association http://transhumanism.org/ World's Leading Cryonics Insurance Provider rudihoffman.com **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 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