X-Message-Number: 3615 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: CRYONICS: re #3594-#3607 Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 21:56:06 -0800 (PST) Hi! A number of interesting postings: 1. I like Brian Wowk's suggestion of a very highly endothermic reaction better than my own. (Though I would say that the area of knowledge needed is really Chemistry rather than nanotechnology --- for those who refuse to consider advanced chemistry as a form of nanotechnology). There are several ways to set off the reaction once you have the chemicals needed (the main problem, of course!). You might want to keep them separate in two different nanosized containers made of a substance that breaks down when it receives a light pulse (or even perhaps a sound pulse) of just the right frequency. Alternatively, the two chemicals (say there are only two involved, each with a complex structure) might be held in one state such that on a shock they will react with one another. That state may involve them actually being chemically linked to one another, but unstable. Getting them into the patients body would basically be done by similar methods of perfusion to those done now. 2. Identity is important, though in itself I don't see that the philosophical problems are unsolvable. Basically, so long as I am not aware of any change, I think it would be unreasonable to claim that my identity had ceased. My own problem with uploading comes with the question of whether or not, using the current sense of the word "computer", it is even POSSIBLE. We don't yet know (in a solid way) just what form long term memory storage takes. One possibility IS the growth of new connections; on a very small scale, some synapses before and after LTP (and after LTP has disappeared) appear to have changed their physical structures in ways which MAY relate to memory... becoming more prominent, and ending up on stalks that stick up out of the nerve cell surface. (How this would encode memory I don't know but it does happen). Much more extreme modifications, such as the outright growth of new synapses, may happen too. (All this is right now very hard to verify technically). But if (for instance) we DO remember by growing new connections, then there will be a hard problem in designing a computer to match such behavior: rewiring itself constantly? I said "computer" here because I see no basic problem in producing the same behavior, including the rewiring, using quite different materials. I will also point out that Bob Ettinger, in his book THE PROSPECT OF IMMORTALITY, written in the late 60's (or at least widely available by then) has a long section in which he discusses the problem of identity with many (I suspect even ALL) the stories about brain replacement which philosophers are now using. Even though he was terribly wrong about how quickly cryonics will catch on, he still grappled with many of the issues that current philosophers are only now starting to notice. If nothing else, he deserves credit for that. 3. Spreading cryonics is very hard. To the lurker who works with accounting and economics, I will say: there are a few wealthy people in cryonics already. But he has simply explained the chicken and egg problem in different clothes (to mix metaphors). If we had lots of millionaires (which we don't) spreading cryonics would be easy (which it is not). One way of thinking of the problem, of course, would be to say that if we had lots of millionaires cryonics will have ALREADY spread and the job is complete. Incidentally, I believe that cryonics does not --- definitely does not --- require the agreement of even a high percentage of those living to work --- or even a relatively LOW percentage, say 10%. Sure it would be very nice, and if it does work then we will all sometimes look back with a feeling of shock at the many many people who passed us by in their ignorance, who are now vanished forever --- not just strangers but friends and neighbors and lovers, who just could never bring them- selves to reach out. And we would feel like the survivors of a holocaust far more extreme than mere human beings have ever imagined or performed. Long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3615