X-Message-Number: 3705 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:08:05 -0500 From: "Bruce Zimov" <> Subject: SCI.CRYONICS: Uploading John, The point is that at the point of termination of one of the subjective instances, there is no way that instance's subjectivity will continue. The copy, however similar, is just a brother. You don't think that they are telepathically linked do you?? You said: >.....................................................An outside >observer might be able to distinguish between the things having >the experience but that is of no importance, it's subjective >feelings were interested in and want to survive. I'm glad you've finally abandoned the Turing test. >........................................... If two subjective >simultaneous experiences are identical and running in parallel >then there is only one subjective experience. They are not numerically identical, if they are in 2 different places at the same time, and if they are experiencing anything they will be perspectively different. Two hydrogen atoms one at A and one a B at the same time where A and B are sufficiently distant in terms of space and time to not be affected by the Uncertainty Principle, as we would have in the case of 2 otherwise identical brains across the room from each other, are obviously different in that they occupy 2 different places at the same time, and if they were awake and perceptive, their subjective experiences would by virtue of their being at A and B always be perspectivally different. In fact, there would be no point at which their subjective experiences would be the same, even if they start out in the same state. You misunderstood me a few posts ago when I mentioned that the sleeping body is the ideal conduit. The point is important enough that I should elaborate. Without knowing what the subjective circuit is, we can only speculate. Right now, I picture it as some sort of attractor, supported by chemical and physical conditioning of the attractor's modulation, c.f. Lorenz or Henon attractor. Specifically, try to imagine how intolerable your subjective state would be without the inner ear balancing mechanism which is largely an external fluid dynamical system. Intense vertigo! Not much fun. There are 2 main features of subjectivity that I regard as important: 1) We're awake, 2) Our senses are integrated. In fact, if we imagine peeling away senses from the integration, its hard to imagine that our subjectivity is anything but a combination of telepresence and sensor fusion supported by some unspecified attractor state better known as the wake state. I am sometimes tempted to identify my subjectivity as my brain's wake state. In this context, the sleeping body is the ideal conduit to TRANSFER what is important in survival from one day to the next, or whatever your sleep cycle happens to be. Its ideal because it works for this purpose, though the design of our brain/body is not ideal for infinite survival, or even transfinite survival:) There is no better conduit, no better temperature for the conduit, no better reactive state that we know of. In a very natural rhythm, it stores and reanimates, stores and reanimates. Here is why uploading the subjective circuit is important. Suppose you could not upload the subjective circuit, but suppose that everyone's subjective circuit was qualitatively identical, but not numerically identical. One might get the bright idea of uploading just the memories in a kind of memory swap between the 2 individuals. This is Locke's example. In this case, rather than being transferred to the other body, you would in fact, be staying in your own body and just thinking you were the other person, even to the point of believing you had transferred since that's how it seemed to you. This is the case of keeping the identity that matters with the subjective circuit. I think if you clear your mind introspectively you can feel that your memories aren't contributing to your subjective state. By clearing introspectively I mean eliminating all intrusive thoughts and recollections meditatively, and using sensor deprivation to suppress object recognition. Bruce Zimov Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3705