X-Message-Number: 3765 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:38:27 From: mike <> Subject: simulations Some recent postings on Cryonet have addressed the issue of simulations of reality or various aspects of it, say with a computer program, versus "the" "real" thing. These discussions are important, despite being somewhat removed from the everyday affairs of cryonics, because they address issues of identity and survival which are also important in cryonics. Here are a few additional thoughts. The point is made that, e.g., a simulated water molecule in a computer is different from a real water molecule. And I agree that there is certainly some validity to this claim. However, the issue is not so straightforward that I (along with others) feel comfortable with a simple dichotomy here, i.e., that computer simulations are simply "unreal." Some interesting thought experiments suggest it's better to think otherwise. E.g., someday, we may find that there is a universe, very much like the one we *think* we are in right now, and on a world within that universe is a computer, rather larger & more powerful than ours of today, but still clearly recognizable as a computation device, and in that computer is a program, which has been running *us* as a simulation. So all along, the air we were breathing, water we drank, etc. were "not real," but neither were we. (This idea was suggested in a recent posting of Mike Darwin.) However, at that point I don't think I'd be worried much; it would be clear that this notion of "reality" is a relative concept. Relative to me, everything I thought to be "real" would in fact have been so. On a deeper level, I would strongly favor the position that the simulated water, air, etc. *is* "real," though its relation to certain other entities (i.e. things outside of the simulation, in the REAL "real world") may not be what I thought originally. Pursuing thoughts of simulations further, it could be the case that, just as our world is a simulation in a larger world, that world in turn may be a simulation in a still larger world, etc. In other words, "simulations all the way down" (or up). So none of the simulating worlds is really "real" since it in turn is a simulation. Still another thought: Can you have circular simulations, e.g. A is simulating B while B is also simulating A? Then both would be equally "real" or "unreal." I don't believe this is logically ruled out, though it seems to involve some tricky ways of modeling the historical process. With such thoughts in mind, though, I feel reasonably comfortable with the idea of uploading, at least as a future possibility. But the technology clearly has a long way to go, and certainly, at present, is no substitute for cryonics. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3765