X-Message-Number: 3874 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 19:37:02 -0800 From: John K Clark <> Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Uploading -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Because of the notorious internet hacker Kevin Mitnick, I'm told THE WELL will be down for at least 48 hours while they repair the damage he caused, if so, this may be my last post for a few days. Do try to contain your grief. (Thomas Donaldson) Wrote: >he mentions catastrophic failure: if he can provide one >computer which is still in active use after 60 years, then >that point might make sense. Computers aren't important only information is. As long as you have a current back up a hardware failure is only a trivial matter. Even in the unlikely event that we can only be implemented on exactly the same logical structure that nature provided and everybody's architecture is different, we could still have backups. Hardware blueprints are just another form of information. >[ computers can ] hold lots of information and do >calculations, for instance .. neither of which we evolved to >do on our own, probably because we had no reason to do so. Yes, I agree. One surprising thing computer science has taught us is that an enormous about of brain power is needed to perform a apparently simple task like moping a floor. How do I pick up the mop? Is that dirt on the floor or is it a shadow? Should I move that obstacle or go around it? How long should I try to get rid of that stain before I give up? These problems don't seem hard to us because were very good at them. Natural selection gave a big advantage to those who were good at spotting a saber toothed tiger hiding in the bushes but no advantage to those who were good at solving differential equations. >uploading isn't an easy solution at all. If it was easy we'd already be doing it. >For that matter, ANY ability to modify ourselves, with or >without "uploading", requires us to think very carefully >about just what modifications we want. I agree except for the "us" and "we" part. This is a personal decision, each individual should decide it on their own. I never want to see laws about this sort of thing but it could happen. >Yet even if we do nothing, in a few centuries or so (given >that we can maintain our present condition) our lifespans >would show an increase. A few thousand centuries perhaps but even that's not certain, it all depends on who leaves most offspring. There's a cost to everything and increasing cell repair to the point that aging is slowed or stopped would take energy. Evolution might go in the opposite direction, shorter lifetime but faster breeding, insects have done well using that strategy. But this is all academic, our future development will be engineered, biological evolution is far too slow to play a part at this stage of the game. >one way in which neurons affect one another's internal >behavior is by chemical methods... so it is not true to say >that they are simply black boxes to one another. [...] >One feature of a chemical is that it diffuses over a >particular area; this means that neurons close to one another >will all be affected, and in that sense will "know" >something about the internal traits of the other. Were back at your sacred chemical signals again. Why on earth does the use of chemical signals mean neurons aren't black boxes to each other? There's nothing mystical about chemical signals, there no different from electronic signals, optical signals or smoke signals except that they have smaller capacity, move far slower and are much less specific. When a neuron detects a acetylcholine molecule it has no way of knowing or caring how another neuron produced it, it can't even tell if a neuron did produce it or if it came from a different kind of cell, a factory, or a man from mars. ALL it knows is that a acetylcholine molecule is at one of it's receptors. Anything else that produced a acetylcholine molecule would have had exactly the same effect on the other neuron. >You are not a black box to me Of course I am, the only thing you know about me is that I produced a particular sequence of bits, everything else is conjecture. Your computer interpreted these bits into ASCII characters. You interpreted those characters into words. You found meaning in those words... well, you found meaning in a few of them. If something else had produced the same sequence of bits there is no way you could tell the difference so I'm a black box to you. I could be an AI and if your correct, an ignorant one that acts like it's got a brain made of goo. >I am justified in making several claims about your internal >states, EVEN WITHOUT ANY SPECIFIC COMMUNICATION FROM YOU. Actually as a practical matter I agree with you, but I'm surprised to hear you say it because what your talking about is nothing less than The Turing Test. >do you believe that uploading of YOURSELF into a computer >will become possible in your own natural lifespan? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. I don't know where you got the idea that cryonics and uploading are in competition, they are not and never will be. As you have pointed out many, many times uploading is not possible NOW. Freezing a brain is possible now. The freezing process may scramble the information beyond hope of recovery but there is a reasonable chance that it does not. Cryonics can't guarantee success but the odds are definitely greater than zero and that's what they'd be if you rot or burn. It doesn't take a genius to know how you should play the odds. Even if your not a fan of uploading you'll probably be one someday. Assuming future entities bother to revive anybody at all ( a serious concern of mine) there unlikely to have much respect for 20th century superstitions. I'll be back. John K Clark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQCzAgUBL0gHLX03wfSpid95AQGmIgTwtcLv/T4mt996CpamyAiwvSb567BJBroI VjoWxf5LovKaQ0F7/4Wf7X/UfLIJrseQcPm1TC7freDZkBj1ZsjtomWO87mMjJvl QdYEWuFAtsZQaXA1q7zMLgzDm2o6wtSBS0ZnDXz/U/+t080+sPgyPwiQOFP7BNDr K1HKOlfHwfvrjZsd8NplUT5QO5Mk0Mdcm40Kt1zNsh0z7JTavXc= =fP15 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3874