X-Message-Number: 3913
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:09:08 -0800
From: John K Clark <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Uploading

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In #3904  "Keith F. Lynch" <>  Wrote: 

		>> Free electrons can not exist in an aqueous solution,

	>Right.

		>> especially one that has a lot of chlorine in it as neurons
		>>do. A  chlorine atom would grab a free electron and             
		>>become an Cl- ion 
		
	>No.  All of the chlorine is already in the form of chloride ions. 
		
No its not. There are lots of different chlorine compounds in a
cell, I haven't counted them but it must be in the thousands . A
chlorine atom in almost any molecule would love to grab hold of
a homeless electron and become a chlorine ion. There was really
no need for me to mention chlorine though, because  as you say,
free electrons can't exist even in pure distilled water. Water
is both an acid and a base and can  ionize itself  so you always
have (H3O)+ and (OH)- ions around.
		

In #3905  (Eli Brandt) Wrote: 

	     >Brian Zimov(?) said, "if the simplest part of the brain is an
	     >N-state device..."  You said, "then it's a bunch of binary          
	     >devices."  To shift gears and say that the hypothetical is 
	     >false does not address the issue.
	      
To say that the SIMPLEST  part of the mind can change in N ways
and N >2 is much worse than false, it's self contradictory, so I
can't address the issue. If 2 + 2 =5 then how much is 5 +5 ? 
			
		       >>recently however suspicion  has mounted that certain
		       >>neurons may have active transmission  even in their                
		       >>dendrites because passive transmission is just too  
		       >>slow for some things. 
		       
	  >Oh.  What's the prevalence of these "certain neurons"?  Where
	  >can I read about this work? 
	  
See " The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick page 96 and 97. 
One relevant quote:

     "It is now suspected that some neurons have active processes
      in their dendrites (as axons have), but they are probably not   
      exactly the same as those found on axons."
      
I found another interesting quote in James Watson's " Molecular Biology Of 
The Cell" page 1030:
		 
     "Axons, though are much worse conductors than electric cables.[...] 
      Passive spread is still less satisfactory for the long distance of 
      transient signals, because the change in membrane potential that 
      results from current flow is not instantaneous but takes time to build 
      up. The time required depends on the membrane capacitance.[...] 
      The membrane capacitance has the effect both of slowing down the 
      passive transmission of signals along the axon and distorting them."
		 

	       >What I see is a lot of text without consensus 
			   
Thank you, but your being much too polite, there is a near consensus,
at least on Cryonet and it is that my views are idiotic. A  consensus 
can be wrong however, as it is in this case.

	       >this speed-up is going to be the limiting factor, rather than
	       >the more spectacular speed-up you could get by replacing 
	       >active transmission.
	       
The brain uses various mechanisms for transmitting information 
and they all work at different speeds, but ALL of them are MUCH
slower than light. If you speeded them all up so they worked at
the same speed, the speed of light, there would be timing problems 
but not unmanageable ones. Gap junctions probably are the fastest and 
only operate over a billionth or so of a neurons length so the timing 
errors would be minute. Chemical signals are the slowest so the timing 
errors would be quite substantial but the amount of information involved 
is tiny and so easily handled by techniques currently used by computer 
designers such as catching.
				    

				    John K Clark           

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